Pope Benedict visit

DWill · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: Pope Benedict visit

This is something I bring up with caution, because I hold no brief for the Roman Catholic Church. Benedict's visit made me think about the values espoused by the church, and one aspect of these values interests me.

We have our current divide between liberal and conservative values. We can list, on the conservative side: anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion, support for capital punishment, anti-environmentalism, pro-free trade and capitalism, "family values", religious belief tending toward fundamentalism, and there are others.

On the liberal side: pro homosexuality, pro-choice, anti-capital punishment, environmentalism, regulation instead free trade, more permissive regarding sex, religious moderation or agnosticism/atheism.

The church's values would be: anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion, anti-capital punishment, restraints on capitalism, regard for the environment,
decreased sexualization, and (of course) religious orthodoxy.

In other words, the church, although probably most often seen as conservative, can't be pinned down as either conservative or liberal, as these labels are reckoned today.

I don't have a conclusion to draw from this. It's just an attempt at an observation.

Ophelia · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject:

Will,

I think you forget one small detail: the list of liberal vs conservative elements you make are true of the US!

The Catholic Church is not an American institution.
It is conservative in its own way, which does not include capital punishment.
It started from very dogmatic to a little more enlightened now, all seen from Rome.

I only heard part of the speech the Pope made in San Francisco.

I was pleasantly surprised to hear that he spoke so clearly about the sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests in the US. I did not expect him to be so outspoken about it.

The next step-- which would be the hardest for the Catholic Church, but in my view the most significant, would be to condemn the hierarchy that had known about those priests for years and protected them, simply moving them from parish to parish when there was a scandal.

Lawrence · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: The Pope

Dear Ophelia and Dwill,
I know you both were kind enough to read at my essay. That said, I am bewildered that I did not communicate to you that we, as a society, can no longer permit pompos, prideful, spiritual leaders to participate in the regulation of our society. Dwill, there is no conservative/liberal perspectives on the issues you listed. The issue is simply does the government choose to exercise its power to regulate human behavior on that issue in the manner they write the law. There can be no moral, ethical, or spiritual justification by the government oligarchy of their action. Government doesn't have to justify any law. The collusion of government and gods throughout history is what the essay was about. Is it that poorly written you didn't understand or did my presentation simply not persuade you to my conclusion? Lawrenceindestin

Robert Tulip · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: The Pope

Lawrence · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Response to DWill

I've thought of a metaphor for what is happening between us. My essay is at the fourth level below the surface in a coal mine saying the timbers are rotten and this sucker is coming down. You and Ophelia are on the surfsce saying I don't think the ground should shake, or maybe it would be alright if it shook over there but not here.

Saffron · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject:

lawrenceindestin & dwill,
Sounds like apples and oranges to me!

President Camacho · Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: does anyone read the subject

DWill,

This is interesting and I really appreciate such an intriguing post.

Republicans aren’t for pro free-trade. You may be thinking of the foreign policy that politicians try to push with the name “free-trade” in them. That is hardly the case though, as I’m sure you know. The subsidies that republicans and democrats (mostly reps) put in place make any free-trade impossible. Agricultural subsidies number in the billions and are the reason that so many Mexican farmers went out of business when NAFTA was enacted. 10% of their entire corn industry in Mexico went under when this happened. This means farmers, workers, those that produced pesticides, maintained farm equipment, etc. They all went out of work. This led to an increase in illegal immigrants entering the U.S., as I’m sure you can imagine.

As far as republicans being anti-homosexual… they are about as anti-homosexual as the church is. I think you know what I mean by that. Say one thing, DO another (guy).

If I had to pick the catholic church being anywhere, it is near the core of the republican party. This archaic institution is at home in the republican camp because they don’t believe in evolution, provide massive protection for wrong-doers, and don’t believe in abortion. The religious stigma is enough by itself.

When I think of powerful religious homosexuals, I think of republican politicians and clergymen, to be honest. Doesn’t everyone? I bet you can name some politicians I’m thinking about. These guys are supposed to be our leaders and REPRESENTATIVES.

Lawrence, please send me a decoder ring for your post.

Lawrence · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: decoder ring

Mr. President,
I would if I could send you a decoder ring. What I'm trying to say is in my essay on my blog here at booktalk lawrencdindestin. If you don't get it there, I guess you aren't going to get it. Doestoesky (sp) in the Brother Keramosov made it clear he believed the responsibility for communication rested with the speaker (writer) and I agree. I say this that you may know I know the fault is with me that you do not understand. There is no fault in you.

President Camacho · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:

I can't believe I wrote that Lawrence. Please excuse me. Sometimes I have a couple drinks and say things that I otherwise wouldn't.

Your last paragraph still has me a little confused though. You say that there can be no moral basis without a dogma about a god... I don't understand. Without religion there are no morals?
And what of ethics? I'm curious to know what came first and why.

DWill · Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Re: does anyone read the subject

President Camacho · Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:08 am Post subject:

72% of all statistics are made up on the spot Laughing

Evolution, in the sense of common ancestry may be true, the Cardinal wrote, but he sees neo-Darwinism, what he describes as “an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection” as completely false in the eyes of the Church.

“Any system of thought”, he clarifies, “that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.”

Source: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=4340

This reads to me like: monkeys ok, absence of deity bad.
I don't know what the other religions are doing these days. Probably too busy worrying about how they're going to fill up the collection plate now that gas prices have gone up.

DWill · Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:12 am Post subject:

I haven't been following closely enough what the Pope has been saying about the clergy sex abuse scandal. I know he's said "profound regrets," etc. etc., but anything that indicates some awareness of a systemic problem and what to do about it? I saw a figure published recently that 5,000 priests have been accused since 1950 and 12,000 victims have come forward. (Can't the actual umbers be assumed to be much higher?) There has been incalculable harm done to these thousands of children.

An interesting comparison provided by the concurrent tours of the Pope and the Dalai Lama: The Pope speaks of the need for the different faiths to live peacefully together. He says he has "deep respect" for Islam, for example. But what does this supposed respect rest upon? Is it that he grants that Islam has its own truth? No, he can't say that; to do so would open him to the charge of the terrible heresy of relativism. He must always maintain that the church holds the one truth, a truth that history has actually borne out. So I ask what this respect of his is, that Muslims are sincere but still misguided?

The Dalai Lama states that all religions can provide their believers with the means to inner peace and enlightenment. No religion possesses the one, transcendent truth. This gives a road to peace that can actually be traveled.
DWill

DWill · Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:23 am Post subject:

I guess I could have looked it up myself, but thanks! This sounds like "theistic evolution," which accepts (though uneasily ) the process and time scale of evolution but insists that it is a tool of God and is purposeful.

This idea of the randomness of evolution disturbs many people. I think scientists don't see the process as thoroughly random, though. Mutations do crop up randomly, but whether those mutations turn out to have survival value and are passed on is not a random process, but strictly determined by the environment.
DWill


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