Wicked: on Elphaba

tlpounds · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Wicked: on Elphaba

Ophelia posed and answered the following question,

How do you interpret the fact that Elphaba's first word was "horrors"

a- Turtle Heart had just said it, and she thought it sounded important, and she liked the sound of the word?

b- it reflected her life with the "divine children" of Rush Margins ?

c- it reflected her life at home?

tlpounds · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject:

Yes, Elphaba heard the word “horrors” from Turtle Heart, but I don’t think she repeated it because she “thought it sounded important,” or that she “liked the sound of the word.” (With that being said, however, there is no right or wrong answer to this question!)

I get the feeling that, along with her green skin, she inherited some form of ESP (i.e. precognition) from her father (whoever he may be –although I am mostly convinced it is not Rex…) I mean, think of how many times you would hear “horrors” growing up versus a word like “Mommy,” “Daddy,” “cookie,” or “water.”

No, “horrors” meant something to Elphaba before it should have, and I think we will see as we read more into Wicked what that first-word irony is about.

Ophelia · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:11 am Post subject:

tlpounds · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Week 3 Discussion Question #1

On page 185, you can find the following quote:

[Avaric:] “And that skin. I wouldn’t want to have skin the color of shit.”
“What a thing to say,” said Elphaba. “If you ask me, that’s a shitty opinion.”
“I forgot, Elphie. Skin is your issue too,” said Avaric.

What is the significance of Elphaba’s green skin? What are the rewards of being so different, and what are the drawbacks? In Oz –and in the real world –what are the meanings associated with the color green, and are any of them pertinent to Elphaba’s character?

tlpounds · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject:

While doing some cursory research for this question in order to my “juices flowing,” I came across an interesting article about “being different” and what it means http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20030708.html
Here is an excerpt from that article:

To attract a mate of a specific type, animals differentiate themselves. “Since females “choose” their mate in most species, males have evolved garish ways of drawing attention to themselves –look at birds and one of the first things you'll notice is that the males are brightly colored and perform bizarre and dangerous rituals to attract attention, while the females have muted colors and tend not to put themselves at such risk.

So, the basic idea about being different to animals is that the unique and exceptional individual gets the best mates. Getting the best mates means that they have a better chance of their genes surviving into the next generation. Thus, they are more successful in life.

But what about for humans? What are the positives for being different? For us, appearance is a broader form of communication than simply being about mating. Being different can actually be a very good thing. Unique individuals define and rule while plain ones simply “go with the flow” and get second pick.

The article went on to say:
Even a cursory overview of "successful people" (ie. business leaders, self-made millionaires, authors, celebrities, etc.) makes it clear that they're not normal people. They tend to be tall. They tend to be beautiful. They tend to be eccentric. Of course there are exceptions, and it is true that the majority are excelling in socially acceptable ways, but the fact remains that the world and its destiny belongs to unique and exceptional individuals.

However, there are also drawbacks for being different. You stand out. From jealousy and/or from fear, others may scorn you for these differences; and thus, you may have to live with ridicule, discrimination, and possibly even threats to your life.

About the meanings associated with green…
The first thing that comes to my mind when I think of green is nature. However, I am not sure how that relates to Elphaba. I mean, witches work with nature when they do their magic, but what we have read of Elphaba so far, she is not a witch. In fact, Glinda was the one –not Elphaba –who studied magic.
Another meaning associated with green is safety. For example, we use green to be the color of “go,” (i.e. free passage) in road traffic. I think Elphaba represents safety because she is the strong one of the children in her family. She always has always taken care of Nessa Rose when she needed help, and she is the voice for civil rights and peace for Animals. Is this what you got for the color green and its meaning for Elphaba’s character?

tlpounds · Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject:

Ophelia · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:36 am Post subject:

My first idea about Elphaba being green is that the colour itself was not important, it was a way of making her different in a fashion that would not be possible in reality, as is also the case with Nasserose (has anybody ever been born with no arms at all?).

I thought the two other colours she could have been were purple and bright orange ( Looking at some of our young people 's choice of hair colour, these three, IMO, go together in making a statement: I'm unusual.)

I tried to think of who our what, apart from students 'hair, could be green: some frogs are green... this line of thought did not take me far.

I was going to dismiss all the usual interpretations that go with green (hope, spring, etc...), but your friend Chris may have a point with envy.
I think we should keep this possibility in mind.

By the way, when (if ever) you think the time is right, in the sense of not hurting your group, you might consider extending Chris an invitation to visit BT... Smile

P-S: The site bmezine.com is very good, thank you for the reference.
The beginning of his posting has reminded me of one more thing I have wanted to write about for a while.
So I'll use this link in a new thread, something about being different.

tlpounds · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:49 am Post subject:

Hi Ophelia.

I will extend the invitation to Chris, although don't be offended if he doesn't accept. I know for a fact that he works between 50 and 60 hours a week, and the only way I got him to "join" my reading group is because I work here with him and could guilt him into keeping up with his reading everyday Very Happy

It really is a shame, though, because he has so much input to give...but I know how there's not enough time to do everything you want, so you have to make sacrifices. Unfortunately, reading and participating in a book club is not one of his priorities.

Anyway, I will talk to him about it today. I'm sure he'll be flattered Smile

Constance963 · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:53 am Post subject:

I just assumed the author made her green because she was green in the movie so I didn't give any particular significance to the green itself. Intersting too is the link of green to the emerald city.....

Constance963 · Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:01 am Post subject:

Oh, and I just loved that Elphaba's first word was "horrors". Interesting that she would wait to speak until she found a word that had some significance. At the time I originally read it I just thought it was kind of funny but in a way it is a foreshadowing of what is to come. Those of us who have seen the movie know what happens to the witch so the word is certainly appropriate for what is to come.

tlpounds · Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:11 pm Post subject:

Early in their unlikely friendship, Galinda catches a glimpse of Elphaba and thinks she “looked like something between an animal and an Animal, like something more than life but not quite Life” (pp 78 – 79).

Discuss the dual, and sometimes contradictory, nature of Elphaba’s charater. Why does Elphaba insist that she doesn’t have a soul? (page 255)

Ophelia · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject:

Good witch/ bad witch.

p 255 "What proof have I of a soul?"

This can have two meanings:

1- The medieval Christian meaning: no soul + female = witch .

2- a more modern meaning: Elphaba and Fyero are discussing instinct, consciousness and soul (noble human aspirations...)

I, too, might argue that somebody has no business claiming I have a soul, that this is placing me within a certain system of belief I don't want to be associated with.

Hmm... but then "soul" is much more part of everyday English than the French equivalent "âme". Two atheists can accuse each other of "having no soul ", meaning "no heart", and neither would be suspecting the other of witchcraft.

Conclusion: reading page 255 as a whole, I'd be inclined to choose interpretation 2.

However, given the title of the book and that the readers know about the Famous Witch of the West, I'd say Maguire is discreetely introducing the theme of "witch", and having fun playing with all those words.

Ophelia · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject:

Good Witch, Bad Witch.

Let's go back to the first of the three quotations at the very beginning of the book:

"Tis very strange Men should be so fond of being thought wickeder than they are".

Daniel Defoe.

This could explain the "I have no soul " theme.

These quotations are a nice touch.
The reader is not likely to peruse them too closely on a first reading, and yet they say a lot.

Ophelia · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: a-typical heroes

A-typical heroes.

I'm going to paste what I've written in the thread about

Stones from the River, by Ursula Hegi.

If all goes well with the new thread, I may be able to get inspiration from reading both novels in parallel Smile

.

Chaptr 1: Introduction of the heroine:

Choosing a heroine, Trudy Montag, with an appearance that will set her apart from the others, and also who has a gift: being able to see the pastand the future simultaneously, p 11.

Main characters in novels whose appearance is distateful to others, and who are thus set apart:

- Elphaba, in Maguire's Wicked, is green.

- Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley.

- The Hunchback of Notre Dame, by Victor Hugo ... not quite though. This is the English title, the French title is Notre Dame de Paris.
Quasimodo is a hunchback but Hugo did not see him as the main character, the main character being the cathedral.

At first glance, there aren't that many such characters chosen to be the hero of a novel.

Can you think of others?
_________________

Ophelia · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:34 am Post subject:

Elphaba as a witch.

Her first act of sorcery is killing Manek, p 366, as a revenge for his attacks on Liir.
"Liir survived, but Manek did not. The icicle that Elphaba trained her gaze on (...) caught him in the skull..."


	FORUMS	ABOUT	BOOKS	VIDEOS	TRANSCRIPTS	LINKS	BLOGS	DONATE	CONTACT