Wicked: Nanny and her perception of life.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:05 am Post subject:

Tammy, thanks for the reference and for attracting my attention to this part of the book.

I'm only going to answer one of your questions-- and very indirectly at that.

I think there is a lot to say about pages 62 to 66.

I see the interaction between "normal" children and a child with a physical handicap, but I aslo see other things woven into it, like the coming together of different social classes .
I love the artistry and the originality in these pages, the way the narrator highlights bleak realities and shows some cruel truths, but still maintaining distance , and a type of humour that goes with distance...I'm not sure how to describe it yet.

Note that the writer doesn't trouble with political correctness in describing what melena thinks of her daughter or children, or in describing Gawnette's world.

First, Nanny is an important character in these pages. It is her idea that Elphaba should mix with humans of her age - between her absentee father and a mother thinking of "dalliance"*, she is the only person who seems to care enough to take decisions of this sort.

Melena says about E, p 60 "She is boring. Some children are."
At no point in these pages do we get the impression this is going to be a pleasant encounter.

P62, their walk to Rush Margins is accompanied by a "stiff, unforgiving wind".
p 61, Melena explained why such an idea horrified her:
"How cruel, to inflict the outside world on her! A green child will be an open invitation for scorn and abuse. And children are wickeder than adults, they have no sense of restraint."

[ By the way Tammy, have you read Barbara Coloroso's The Bully, the Bullied and the Bystander? I recommend it.]

Nanny explains her choice with "Elphaba must learn who she is and must face cruelty early."

Melena "And the weapons and armour she'll learn from the dirty urchins of Rush Margins?".
Nanny: "Laughter. Fun . Teasing . Smiling."

So my question is: From what we see of Elphaba when we next meet her (at Shiz, then in the Emeralds City), did she get " weapons and armour" from Gawnette's children?

If so, which weapons did she gain?

Were they those Nanny had predicted: laughter, teasing...

And incidentally, did Elphaba learn to have a sense of humour?

Note that, although Elphaba walked all the way to Rush Margins, she was not yet two and had yet to speak her first word.
(p 70 "It was her first word. (...) She was nearly two years old.")

How do you interpret the fact that Elphaba's first word was "horrors" ?

a- Turtle Heart had just said it, and she thought it sounded important, and she liked the sound of the word?

b- it reflected her life with the "divine children" of Rush Margins ?

c- it reflected her life at home?

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tlpounds · Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject:

Ophelia, you quoted the following passage in your last post:

Melena says about E, p 60 "She is boring. Some children are."
p 61, Melena explained why such an idea [taking Elphaba into Rush Margins to play with the town's children] horrified her:
"How cruel, to inflict the outside world on her! A green child will be an open invitation for scorn and abuse. And children are wickeder than adults; they have no sense of restraint."
Nanny explains her choice with "Elphaba must learn who she is and must face cruelty early."
Melena "And the weapons and armour she'll learn from the dirty urchins of Rush Margins?"
Nanny: "Laughter. Fun. Teasing. Smiling."

I think this situation is simply one of the many examples of why Melena comes across to readers as a terribly selfish and self-serving person (which makes the idea of her being a mother simply repugnant because being a mother is about generosity and self-sacrifice). Nanny is the only one who actually cares about what’s best for Elphaba and works to ensure that she’s given somewhat of a normal childhood, regardless if her own mother likes it or not . For Nanny, the focus is always on what’s best for the child. It’s her life’s purpose (taking care of children); she even takes care of Melena up until her end and continues to take on Melena’s burden of parenting two deformed children after she dies. Unfortunately for Melena, her parenting skills have always juxtaposed to those of Nanny’s in the book, and she just could never live up to the bar Nanny set. Perhaps for someone too immature to be a parent, but one nonetheless, and who had a deformed child as her firstborn, she did about as good as could be expected if compared to other first-time mothers.

You asked me if I have you read Barbara Coloroso's The Bully, the Bullied and the Bystander? I'm sorry, but I can’t say that I have. I'm marking it down as a future read now, though Wink

Your next questions were, "From what we see of Elphaba when we next meet her (at Shiz, then in the Emerald City), did she get "weapons and armor" from Gawnette's children? If so, which weapons did she gain? Were they those Nanny had predicted: laughter, teasing... And incidentally, did Elphaba learn to have a sense of humor?

When Elphaba was a child, she spent most of her time among adults. As I read Wicked, Elphaba has always seemed to me more like an adult than a child. Therefore, I think Elphaba gained her greatest weapons from the company and interaction among adults (logic, critical thinking, curiosity, sense of duty) and the armor from the forced interaction with the children of Rush Margins. By armor, I mean that she received exposure to other people’s reaction to her outside and appearance and their hateful treatment towards her because of it. From this exposure, she had to learn to “toughen up” –to learn how to deal with abuses and strike back at the world in return.

As for your last question, “How do you interpret the fact that Elphaba's first word was "horrors?"

That was actually one of the questions my reading group discussed in Week 1! (“What do you think is the significance, if any, of Elphaba’s first word being “horrors?”) I believe this question will elicit several responses, so, if you don’t mind, I’m going to make a new thread on Elphaba and make this the first question we will discuss about her Smile

tlpounds · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Perception

During the second biology class with Dr. Nikidik on page 187, he posed the following question to the class:
“…Do you think that if we could cauterize that part of the brain that develops language, we could eliminate the notion of pain and thus its existence?”

This question reminded me of the old classic, “If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a noise?
One argument is that a falling tree makes a noise because a noise is simply a vibration of air. Just because no one heard, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
On the other hand, one could also argue that a sound is simply our perception of the vibration of the air. Thus, if no one heard it, then it didn’t really make a sound…

So, do you think pain could cease to exist if we lost the capacity to identify and describe it? Or, does it exist regardless of whether or not we are capable of recognizing it?

Ophelia · Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject:

Tammy, I've written my answer in the "Animal Rights" thread.

tlpounds · Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: Cold Anger

On page 365 of Wicked, you can find the following quote by Sarima (Fiyero’s widow):

"And girls need cold anger. They need the cold simmer, the ceaseless grudge, the talent to avoid forgiveness, the sidestepping of compromise. They need to know when they say something that they will never back down, ever, ever. It’s the compensation for a more limited scope in the world. Cross a man and you struggle, one of you wins, you adjust and go on –or you lie there dead. Cross a woman and the universe is changed, once again, for cold anger requires an eternal vigilance in all matters of slight and offense."

What do you think of Sarima’s claim that women have “cold” anger? Is it sexist? Or, do you think she has a point? In your experience, do women hold grudges longer than men? Are they pettier?

Also, what do you think of Sarima’s reasoning for why women possess “cold” anger –that it’s some form of “compensation for a limited scope in the world?” What does the author mean by “limited scope?” (Intellectual capacity? Lot in life?) And, from where do you think would this “limited scope” come? God? The Universe?

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:08 am Post subject:

What Sarima says about men and women holding grudges or not is of course very interesting.

What she says about men is easy to follow; what she says about women makes me stop and think: "cold simmer, ceaseless grudge, talent to avoid forgiveness, the sidestepping of compromise..." etc...

Perhaps this is an example of art: not really describing reality, but making you pause, putting it into words that you will remember.

It is true that men seem to be less adept at bearing grudges than women.
Some men are forgiving and generous, just as some women are.

The difference, I think, is that men tend to live more in the present.
So, in the old days: that bloke annoyed me, so I'll shoot him. No gun? I'll hit him, and then he'll either be dead (now that's the past, I've already forgotten about him) or still standing on his legs, in which case I'll shake his hand. He got the public whipping he deserved, I won't bear a grudge.

Now, women: Sarima is right in her analysis, in a traditional society women are limited to a passive role within the home, so wounds fester.

Before this passage, Sarima had already attracted my attention from what we learnt about Fyiero's thoughts during his affair with Elphaba.
And here we return to a theme that is always worth studying: powerful men.
We understood that Prince Fyiero 's home life was not exactly wonderful, so to escape it he would go on a trip now and then. He would spend a few months in town, have a good time with his chums at the club, and perhaps have a love affair. After a while he would realize that he shouldn't have left his wife and children for so long, so he'd send them presents, and stay a few more months in town.

On his return (but this time he didn't return) he would have been in the mood to be a good husband and a good father (for a while), and would have been surprised and saddened by his wife's cold welcome. After all, he was bearing no grudges!

Now let's leave traditional societies and look at the modern world: if you are a man and bear a grudge, how do you act on it? Guns are still availale in some parts of the world, but are not seen as the answer to everyday problems. Fists? Well, again, usually not. This leaves: the shouting match, with all sorts of colourful language.
Women also use language (but not guns or fists), but will often not feel comfortable with swearing, so other types of language weapons will be used.
And if you don't have a shouting match, there's revenge, nowadays in the form of revenge at work or the super business deal that is going to crush your opponent for the next 10 years. No words will be used, but the two parties concerned will know exactly what this was about. This goes for both sexes, since both now operate in the same world.

Now, as far as not bearing grudges, not being mean, having a forgiving spirit... Some people have that capacity, and once you remove the traditional roles imposed on both sexes I suppose who has more generosity of spirit must be a question of personality rather than gender.

My intuition says this though: men still live in the present more than women, and women are better at taking into account past, present and future in their personal lives.
(Obviously some are not, and some women are forever the gullible preys of smooth talkers).

If, when you are asked for forgiveness, or just expected to forgive, you can consider, not just the harm that has been done to you, but the fact that the same thing happened in the past from the same person and in all probability will happen again, the whole idea of putting all this behind you becomes much more complex.

Not bearing a grudge then would require the patience of a saint, or the unstoppable forward motion of the optimist.

Now, if you take this one step further, and consider the behaviour of humanity over the years (rather than the one person who had done something to you), and you know that such behaviour has happened before and will happen again ... Not bearing grudges then becomes so complex that I think humans have needed religions to help them grasp such possibilities, and otherwise individual answers are what they are, ie not necessarily very satisfactory.

Ophelia · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: NANNY IS BACK!

NANNY IS BACK!

When things might have been getting a bit dull, the uncomparable Nanny makes a comeback.

Pages 381 and following, she tells Elphaba everything about her family.

p 382: Nanny stopped, muddled. "Or was that elixir to prevent her next child from being born green?".

I think there is at times in Wicked a tone that I find difficult to define. I struggle with " crazy", "outrageous"...

I have a feeling that this tone or technique has been used before, and explained before, only I don't know those books.

Help???

Perhaps in South American literature?

Ophelia · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject:

I'm trying to think of words to describe the scene with Nanny mentioned above.

1- The contrary of "showing restraint".

In literature, the contrary of a world with Nanny would be the world of Jane Austen.

Nanny is an earthy character (almost bawdy at times?).

2- I've thought of "burlesque" for some aspects of the novel.

" a literary or dramatic work that seeks to ridicule by means of grotesque exaggeration or comic imitation."
Merriam-Webster.

Tammy, we haven't heard much from you on the Wicked threads lately.
I hope it just means that you're busy, not that I've written anything to annoy you.


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