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LanDroid 
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject:
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Knowing efforts to disprove the Holocaust will never stop, a foundation set up by Steven Speilberg has filmed untold thousands of hours of testimony by survivors so a record of their experiences is maintained. Video testimony by nearly 52,000 survivors and observers has been saved. You can search and review some of them here:
http://college.usc.edu/vhi/otv/otv.php |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject:
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| Frank 013 wrote: |
| Why would these cages be there if not for the transportation of Jewish nationals? |
No one has ever disputed the mass-deportation under police-state condition of Jews from Europe by the Third Reich. The scene you're describing is fairly common in police-states. Iraq is a good example of how attempts were made to fabricate a story of up to 400,000 Kurds murdered with poison gas by Saddam Hussein. Since they began a search for bodies the last available report in 2004 said they had found 5000:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/jul/18/iraq.iraq1
Even so, no one disputes that Iraq was a police-state and that something like scenes of cages can be likely found within the Ba'athist prison system. This offers a lesson in the need to distinguish among what supposed evidence really does and does not imply.
For the first 15 years after WWII it was claimed that extermination camps equipped with gas chambers had existed all across Germany. In the 1960s it was acknowledged that none had ever existed on German territory but that allegedly 6 such extermination camps had existed in Poland. such a sweeping change without explanation was just pushed casually across. Although the Nuremberg trials had produced nothing different as "evidence" for the alleged eastern extermination camps than they did for the west, it was now acknowledged that the "evidence" presented at these staged trials was worthless with regards to the western camps. But the legends for the Polish camps were maintained for as long as the Cold War went on. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject:
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| LanDroid wrote: |
| Knowing efforts to disprove the Holocaust will never stop, a foundation set up by Steven Speilberg has filmed untold thousands of hours of testimony by survivors so a record of their experiences is maintained. |
Unfortunately it was not a practice in the Nuremberg trials or any of the later for testimony to carefully scrutinized and this has resulted in ludicrous stories being passed around uncritically. There just another recent case where Misha Defonseca admitted that her story was fraudulent:
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=4367305
But that's hardly the most significant case. In the 1985 trial of Ernst Zundel Rudolf Vrba and Arnold Friedman were called as witnesses for the prosecution. They had both been prominent as survivors with "testimony" to offer, but they were demolished when Douglas Christie began asking them methodical questions. Friedman admitted on the witness stand that he had never seen a gas chamber but had only repeated what other people had told him he should say. Vrba admitted that his book I CANNOT FORGIVE was based upon "poetic license" rather than fact.
Step away from all of the alleged "testimonies" churned out after the war and in subsequent years and consider some simple scientific facts. The water level around Auschwitz was 18 inches from the surface of the earth. It's a very swampy region around Auschwitz. Now supposedly giant pits were dug several years deep and thousands of bodies dumped in the pits to be burned. In such an environment these hypothetical thousands bodies would simply be immersed in water that would rise to the surface as the water below 18 inches of digging would be displaced by bodies dumped into a pit several yards deep. Consequently the bodies would not burn and hundreds of thousands of uncremated bodies should have been found rotting in the swamps about Auschwitz. This was never found. It's war propaganda, just like the myth of the Iraqi WMDs ready to go off on 45 minutes notice.
Forensic science has to always take precedence over testimony which conflicts with reality. Only when testimonies have passed such scrutiny can they then be used seriously as a reference point. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| Why would a deity create such an abundance of evidence supporting the Big Bang |
That's a false comparison since there is no such abundance of evidence supporting the myth of the gas chambers. What has been admitted by such figures as Raul Hilberg and Christopher Browning is that no extermination order exists, all of the documents discussing the "Final Solution" speak of "evacuation of the Jews" such as it is phrased in the Wannsee documents, no substantive documents of gas chambers exist other than "testimonies" given at the Nuremberg trial and its follow-ups. Daniel Goldhagen goes further in HITLER'S WILLING EXECUTIONERS and even starts to claim that gas chambers were peripheral to events. No one has yet produced any evidence in the form of either an authenticated functional execution gas chamber or even a clear layout of how such a gas chamber was alleged to have been installed and operated. All of this can be found out just by reading the official literature from such authors as Hilberg and Browning. Revisionists come into play when it becomes an issue of actually answering the questions which official historians are unable to. But the claims about an "abundance of evidence" supporting the official story are clearly false in themselves.
What all of the attempts to support the official story of the alleged Holocaust lean upon, aside from the more dishonest false tesimonies and fabricated documents which were both abundant at Nuremberg, are two key points:
1) There was a major counter-insurgency war going on across eastern Europe, and especially on the territory of the Soviet Union, and all such counter-insurgency campaigns tend to breed their own fair share of My Lai massacres. That, however, is qualitatively fundamentally different from the claims about an alleged extermination plan aimed at killing all Jews.
2) As it appears in the Wannsee document and other similar sources, the Third Reich formulated a plan for "evacuation of the Jews" whose intent was a wholesale deportation by force of Jews from Europe into Asia. That involves a violation of human rights in itself, but of a kind which is unfortunately very common in human history. There is nothing to support the claim that "evacuation" was a codeword for anything.
These two basic factual points were pumped up by Allied propaganda after the war so as to magnify a distinction between themselves and the defeated power and the result today is our modern fable of the Holocaust. |
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Frank 013
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:47 am Post subject:
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| So Patrick, you are saying that nearly 52,000 people who claim to be survivors and observers are all lying in front of Steven Speilbergs camera? |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:09 am Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| I'm sure you believe in some of the above or maybe in UFO's, astral projection, astrology, ESP, reincarnation, telepathy, and other such extraordinary claims. Am I hitting the nail on the head? |
You're as far offbase as anyone could ever be. Why should I believe in reincarnation? Why should I believe that it was ever possible to cremate 6000+ bodies on a daily basis at Auschwitz using at most 46 cremation muffles each of which is capable of handling at most one body per hour? They're examples of mysticism. If you want a better example of something close to astrology you might open up Rabbi Benjamin Blech's book THE SECRETS OF HEBREW WORDS to page 214. Blech discusses some ancient Hebrew prophecies of "ye shall return" about returning to Israel and informs that the character "vav" is missing from the correct Hebrew spelling of "ye shall return." He then goes on to explain that in numerological terms the character "vav" has the value of six and that this omission of the character with the value six was a prophecy of the alleged Holocaust. Now that's mysticism akin to UFOs.
In fact as early as 1900 Zionist organizations were carrying the number six million. Go back to the NEW YORK TIMES of June 11, 1900, and read the report on Rabbi Stephen Wise's address from the previous day:
"There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism."
The six million number was being circulated by Zionist groups for some decades before Hitler even came to power. In the context of WWII propaganda that number was converted into the basis for a story of atrocity-mongering. UFO believers might tell you that Wise was seeing the future as a prophet. I'm simply pointing out that Wise made this number up based upon the kind of religious mysticism which Blech finds in the missing "vav" character. |
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Daisy
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Wow...
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Wow, this is really deep.
I had heard Holocaust deniers exist, but haven't come across one until now. Aside from that annoying Irani dictator, I mean.
It seems as though I have been fascinated by the horror of the Holocaust since I was a child. I remember choosing it for class projects as early as 4th grade.
I have read and seen so much in my lifetime documenting the events, and had my heart break at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.
The Nazi's are known for the meticulous documentation, and this recent development will provide significantly more evidence in the public eye than what currently exists:
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| If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome... |
Although I suppose PatrickSMcNally and the dictator of Iran will still be unswayed. As unfathomable as this seems to me.  |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:15 am Post subject:
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| Ok, let's toss out the 6,000,000 number and go with a more conservative 1,000,000. Does this change anything? Would it be any less disgusting to gas 1,000,000 Jews? Seriously, answer this. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| Ok, let's toss out the 6,000,000 number and go with a more conservative 1,000,000. Does this change anything? Would it be any less disgusting to gas 1,000,000 Jews? Seriously, answer this. |
Well there's no evidence that gas chambers ever existed, except for delousing chambers used for disinfecting clothes and the like. There were, of course, things similar to the free fire zones in Vietnam. For example, someone walking around outside of certain ghetto areas could be shot down freely without being identified. But gas chambers, no. About one million Jews, though if we allow for a margin of error in statistics it might be as high as 1.5 million, died from all causes in the Second World War, including combat deaths in the Soviet Army and the like. About 300,000 of these occurred within the concentration camp system, with perhaps another 200,000 non-Jews perishing within the areas of the camp.
A simple introduction to some of these issues is given by Germar Rudolf
http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndstats.html
and Jurgen Graf:
http://germarrudolf.com/work/dth/fndGraf.html
Personally I never liked what I'd heard about the US Army doing in Vietnam and doubt that I'd like any other army doing anything similar if I were of a different nationality. But the claims coming from the Holocaust industry have consistently emphasized a marked difference between the alleged Nazi genocide with gas chambers and run of the mill atrocities committed by occupying powers such as the US was in Vietnam. So it's only natural to seek to clarify what precisely upholds this distinction, if anything. |
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PatrickSMcNally
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Wow...
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| Daisy wrote: |
The Nazi's are known for the meticulous documentation, and this recent development will provide significantly more evidence in the public eye than what currently exists:
| Quote: |
| If you Goggle a bit, you'll find Germany recently opened the world's largest archive of holocaust documents. The Nazi's recorded everything in excruciating detail. There are something like 16 miles of files in six buildings - an Everest of evidence that deniers cannot overcome... |
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You obviously have not read very much on the subject at all. If you had you'd be aware that such orthodox authors as Leon Poliakov (author of Harvest of Hate) have maintained that the one single place where the Third Reich failed to produce any documentation was on the "campaign to exterminate the Jews... No document remains, perhaps none has ever existed..."
It has been acknowledged for several decades that no documents existed which clearly described a methodical plan to exterminate Jews. Instead the claim, from the orthodox authors, not the revisionists, has been that a code language was used throughout all documents of the Third Reich and that consequently the documents all speak of "evacuation of the Jews," "eastern settlements" and the like, without ever mentioning gas chambers, but that this is all a code language.
Regarding the opening of more documentary archives, I've listened to the reports of such and haven't heard anything which even remotely suggests that these documents have anything to support the claims of either gas chambers or an ethnic extermination plan. The reports which I've encountered that describe something of content about what is in the archives only point to the existence of a police state where neighbors could spy on each other, as if that's news. Not a single report has yet suggested that any new documentation in these archives will alter the judgment which Leon Poliakov made decades ago that no documentation exists which supports the story of an attempted extermination of Jews. |
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psyops
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject:
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| "Revisionism" IS history. Without "revisionism", empirical history would be impossible. It is through the empirical practice of "revisionism" that Holocaust historians at Yad Vashem have revised the number of Auschwitz dead from their 1960's figure of four million, down to the 1.2 million figure they advocate today. This stellar example of Holocaust revisionism was affected because over half a century, a preponderance of emerging historical evidence supported the lower figure, thus Holocaust historians revised their estimate of the number of people murdered in Auschwitz by nearly 3 million. These Jewish Holocaust historians at Israel's national Holocaust museum aren't "Nazis" or "anti-Semitic rednecks", nor are they some sinister "hate group" because they engage in the empirical practice of Holocaust revisionism; they're simply professional historians doing what historians do. Please try and remember that "revisionism" is as indispensable an empirical tool to the professional historian as is the scientific method to a chemist or physiologist. |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:
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| psyops, are you also "PatrickSMcNally?" |
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psyops
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| psyops, are you also "PatrickSMcNally?" |
Chris OConner, are you also Jethro Bodine? |
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Chris OConnor
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject:
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| My question wasn't a joke. Are you the same person? |
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psyops
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject:
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| Chris OConnor wrote: |
| My question wasn't a joke. Are you the same person? |
No. |
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