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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: The Price of Atheism (YouTube)
The Price of Atheism
Awesome video showing how atheists are abused in many situations. This video is worth your time. And I'd like some of the theists on BookTalk to watch it too. I think most theists have no idea how much crap atheists have to deal with on a daily basis.
This is indeed a good video; it not only shows the estrangement that many of us suffer from but also the overall denial that the good Christian public could possibly be responsible for this type of exclusion.
I have absolutely no problem accepting the possibility that those “good Christian kids” were saying the things that the girl accused them of… I have heard it personally many times myself.
While I was in the Corrections Academy we had a class on religions… in that class I admitted that I was an atheist. Even though my knowledge surpassed that of my classmates on the subject (and the instructor as well) I was called a “fool” by the instructor and several of my classmates said that I was going to hell.
Luckily this all happened during the later part of the training and my classmates had already accepted me as a moral and worthy individual. While the atheist admission did cause some immediate fallout it did not last… I suspect that because they already knew me the pill was easier to swallow so to speak.
The truth is being an atheist should actually be a badge of honor. We have something of which to be proud and it is time for us to stand up and declare our lack of belief with pride.
Chris,
My essay did not sell you on the fact that belief is personal and unprovable. One persons belief is as good as another person. Only pride causes one person to think his/her belief is better than another persons. That is all belief. Belief about god, football teams, etc.
An aside. Could you allow me to send PM. Wild City Woman wanted to discuss my essay in that format but I can't. I'll have 25 posts pretty soon. Thanks, Lawrence
lawrenceindestin
My essay did not sell you on the fact that belief is personal and improvable. One person’s belief is as good as another person. Only pride causes one person to think his/her belief is better than another persons. That is all belief. Belief about god, football teams, etc.
What about beliefs that can be proven through empirical evidence? (Gravity makes things fall)
Are those not more credible than insisting on the existence of one thing or another without evidence? (Pink unicorns live on Venus)
My essay did not sell you on the fact that belief is personal and unprovable.
Definitely not.
Quote:
One persons belief is as good as another person.
All beliefs are not created equally. This is a line of BS invented by people embarrassed by the nuttiness of their beliefs. They want to drag intelligent and educated people down to their level by saying, “But hey! You have beliefs too! Hah!”
Example:
Bob believes he is a superhero and can flap his arms and fly 900 mph.
Susan believes that somewhere in the world someone is playing basketball with a black colored basketball at this very moment.
According to you Bob's belief is "as good" as Susan's. I say Bob has a screw loose and his belief is absolutely ridiculous. Susan's belief is rather reasonable when you take into account the population of the entire planet, the popularity of basketball, and the percentage of black basketballs sold vs. all other colors of basketballs sold. Susan is being reasonable and Bob is delusional.
Quote:
Only pride causes one person to think his/her belief is better than another persons.
Pride? I think the ability to reason is what leads a person to recognize bullshit beliefs vs reasonable beliefs.
You first Frank,
When you enter the area of science (empirical evidence), although still operating with beliefs they test for the theory being subject to falsifacation. Dr. Van Swaay's quote in Chapter 1.
Why do you care if there are or are not absolutes? If you believe there is an absolute why do you care if I believe the same as you? What my essay is saying is I don't think there are many absolutes within individuals, that most of us are operating on what we believe is real and that is our reality in both the finite and infinite matters. So, leave everyone alone. Let them live in their beliefs and dialogue about differences if they want to but no one can impose their will on another concerning reality.
OK Chris,
[quAll beliefs are not created equally. This is a line of BS invented by people embarrassed by the nuttiness of their beliefs. They want to drag intelligent and educated people down to their level by saying, “But hey! You have beliefs too! Hah!”
ote] (sorry I haven't figured out how to quote)
I'm not sure what you are saying. If Everyone is entitled to believe what ever they want, and no one is to impose their will on another, how is anyone "draging intelligent and educated people down?"
Re: Bob, There is no judging. What's the point. A belief cannot be proved true and as to good and bad what is the basis of your value system. If you believe Communism is good then Capitalism is bad. If you believe Capitalism is good then free markets are good and socialism is bad. But all are beliefs.
Pride? I think the ability to reason is what leads a person to recognize bullshit beliefs vs reasonable beliefs.
Reasoning is our capacity to discern. Dialogue is one way we learn. When we present our beliefs, even if strongly convinced of the objective accuracy of them, winning the other person to our point of belief only occurs within his belief system as a voluntary conclusion not by the use of force. There are 6 billion people on the planet. You don't have to talk to all of them and if the person you talk with is boring to you, just walk away. As I say in Chapter 5, there is so much variety among us that there are many people that are "not made for each other." That, however, does not keep us from respecting them and knowing they are having just as hard a time with life as you are.
Be kind, everyone is fighting a great battle.
If you believe Communism is good then Capitalism is bad. If you believe Capitalism is good then free markets are good and socialism is bad. But all are beliefs.
Well, the fact that Communism is on a steep decline should say that it is a belief that does not work well for a society. Capitalism has worked better. I do not think capitalism is THE answer though...too much opportunity for corruption...so what is next? I think of both of these as SYSTEMS, rather than beliefs though.
So what about the person I mentioned in another thread? They believe it is just FINE for an adult to have sexual intercourse with a child. I mean, children are ready to produce offspring at a very early age, and if two people are compatible and love each other and both BELIEVE that they are doing nothing wrong...well, that should be fine yes?
Anyone can have any belief they want, but there is absolutely a way to jusdge the validity and usefulness/harmfullness of beliefs.
I prefer to not even use belief for my views. I do not believe that things fall to the earth because of what we call gravity...I understand that this is so based on many people working out the problem. Same for eveolution. Either these things are real or they are not. So just because creationist says Evolution ain't so does not make that belief valid.
I'm not sure what you are saying. If Everyone is entitled to believe what ever they want, and no one is to impose their will on another, how is anyone "draging intelligent and educated people down?"
Just because we're all entitled to believe whatever we want doesn't mean that all beliefs deserve equal respect. Some beliefs are founded on solid reasoning while others are formed primarily by wishful thinking, a lack of education and a genuine lack of interest in discovering truth.
Intelligent and educated people usually have intelligent and educated beliefs. When uneducated and unintelligent people attempt to argue that all beliefs are equal they are in essence showing a complete lack of respect for critical thinking, education and intellectual integrity.
Why should anybody study anything if all beliefs are just about equal? Why not just wing it through life? Why invest precious time and energy in exposing oneself to different cultures, peoples and fields of knowledge when in the end all this investment will give the investor is the same ROI as the guy next door who never cracked a book in his entire adult life?
Something tells me you don't actually believe what you're saying. You think you've discovered some sort of deep philosophical principle and you're presenting it as if you really believe it with all your heart. But you don't. You probably agree more with me than you're allowing yourself to admit. I'll give you an example...
Imagine being in a life or death situation where you had to depend on one other human being for survival, and you could select that one individual from a line of people with varying levels of critical thinking skills and educational backgrounds. According to what I am hearing you would be happy with picking a person randomly, because, after all, all of their opinions are pretty much just wild guesses with no real level of certainty attached to any. You wouldn't weed through the available choices and try to find the person that is the brightest and most educated.
I think if your life depended on it you would select the same person as I would, but when arguing from a philosophical perspective you can't seem to understand how even your own mind makes decisions. I think you're simply confused about why one idea is more valuable than the next idea, so you put forth the argument that both ideas must be equal. But if you were placed in a life or death situation I bet you'd quickly use the same line of reasoning as me and would immediately discard the philosophically bankrupt notion that beliefs and ideas are just random mumbo jumbo.
Thank you Mr. P.
In Chapter 2 of my essay I write:
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We learned from Dr. Van Swaay that the scientific method of empirical research can only produce a high degree of probability about finite substance, not factual truth. We learned from Dr. Erdman, that our human perception system filters our incoming sensory experiences and our knowledge and understanding takes on the patina of our unique personality. That means there is no factual truth about infinite matters either. If we stop here I have presented nothing more than a simplistic argument for the rationality of nihilistic philosophy. My response is to paraphrase Descartes response to the absurdist (the philosophers who believed nothing is real). I can not prove there is any truth in finite or infinite matters, but I know that when I get hungry I eat and that is real and the truth is, after eating I am no longer hungry.
It is my premis that our perceived reality is all we have to operate with in making life choices. Facts to live by are few and far between. People who use absolutes to live by are very brittle people and if they are leaders they are tyrants. It is our reality we do not know why we are alive or what we are to do with it. My premis is, we are here, lets make the best of it in peace and respect for each other.
Chris
Some how you are picking up "all beliefs are equal." I am certainly not saying that. And I don't know how to address our apparent disconnect.
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Something tells me you don't actually believe what you're saying. You think you've discovered some sort of deep philosophical principle and you're presenting it as if you really believe it with all your heart. But you don't. You probably agree more with me than you're allowing yourself to admit.
Chris, you judge me harshly and in error. For more than 30 years I've tried to figure out why there is so much strife in the world. I do not know how closely you read my essay, and I acknowledge it is poorly written, but I believe with all my heart that until it is common knowledge that organized religions have elevated a personal belief to be a fact of life for all to live by, we can not live in peace with one another on this planet. It is pride not reason which is the only force that provokes a person to think his belief was better than someone elses and then use force to make that person agree. It is monstrous. And it has gone on all through our recorded history.
I anticapated defending my thoughts would be difficult. I did not expect the clarity of their truth and validity to be so obscure.
Thanks, Keep those cards and letters coming. Lawrence
Thank you Mr. P. Well stated. Chris my oppology.
I am presuming you all have read my blog. You all are not deliniating the difference in belief about finite matters and infinite matters. When it comes to infinite matters, i.e., is there a god? One person's opinion is as good as the next. There can be no imperical proof to establish such a belief as a fact.
When it comes to finite matters, i.e., this world we live in and experience, because of our individual uniqueness, each person forms his/her own opinion about what is their reality. The three of you seem to think there is some primordial reason that we all must agree about what our finite reality is. The blur in your thinking that I see, is that you presume there is order of human reasoning which determines what reality should be declared "true" for others, or all, to follow. That is as monstrous as what organized religion has done to infinite beliefs.
Mr. P. you mentioned belief that sex with minors would make it OK. I believe you are blurring (and you said you haven't read my blog), the fact that we cannot revise our social values until we unmask the leaders of organized religion and their dogma for the mischief they have caused in using political power to have their morals for social conduct incorporated into law. The second part of my thesis is that you can not use force to impose your will on another. Governments cannot exist without the use of force. Once we seperate beliefs from our reality, I hope the people would reevaluate the social norms reflected in our laws. Mr. P., you might read Chapter 3 of my blog. I address societies whole concept of male/female to be almost hopelessly twisted by the religious declaration that the identity of male or female is determined by genitalia.
Well, there is no doubt I've asked for this. I'm not wearing out yet, how you doing? Lawrence
I just finished sending an email to Dr. VanSwaay. It might clarify why I'm writing my essay. It is the only thing I know to do.
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Thank you for Clarence Thomas speech. I'm curious as to why you sent it. I understand the beauty of the Constitution as an evolutionary instrument for the people who live in society to escape from tyrants, both spiritual and civil of the 18th Century. I also appreciate the political ingenuity of inventing the separation of powers and representative government and those men's personal, political, and financial courage to act on their beliefs. Truly a transition point in the history of humanity. But our democracy is still an experiment. I do not believe we can keep polishing the Constitution with the cloth of reverence for what the founding fathers were intending. The open society which the founders enabled is now confronted with the real and imagined threat of world wide terrorism. It is the point of my essay, that terrorism exists because we, the people, have allowed the leaders of organized religion to elevate their belief in their god as a fact and use their dogma about that god to impose their will on others by force. America is no exception. Bush is as much a terrorist as Bin Laden. My essay is attempting to expose this insanity. I wish life was more simple. I wish there was a peaceful place to go. But I can have no peace because my soul is sensitive to the pain these terrorists are causing simple folks like you and me. I am just as sensitive to the spiritual and personal pain the tyrants caused throughout history. I can't do anything about the past. This essay is all I know to do for the possible benefit of the future.
I am not attempting to get anyone in BookTalk to agree with me. I believe my insight is a valid observation of life and I am offering it for your consideration. In the comments I was hoping for intelligent and educated challenge to my facts, logic, or conclusions. When you present me with your opinions that disagree with my conclusions you show me where my writing is weak. But I'm not picking a fight with anyone, especially about what you believe. Thank you for the forum.
