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Robert Tulip 
Freshman
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 200
Gender: 
Location: Canberra
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject:
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| George Ricker wrote: |
| Robert Tulip wrote: |
| George Ricker wrote: |
| Conrad seems most interested in telling tales of men and ships. |
I don’t agree – the implication of this comment is that Conrad is a shallow action author with tales of derring-do on the high seas. Conrad in HD is most interested in a political and psychological critique of the colonial enterprise, with the ships only a stage. The French warship lugubriously shelling the jungle is hardly an image aimed at making a life at sea seem exciting. |
Actually, the implication of the comment is that Conrad seems most comfortable when writing about men and ships. If you want to spin that into labeling him a "shallow action author," that's your privilege, but it's your inference, not my implication. One can write about men and ships and still deal with great moral questions and conundrums. My point was that part of the reason the women in Conrad's tale seem sketchy is that he seems much less capable when writing about them. Your mileage may vary, and, in this case, obviously does. George |
Hi George, thanks for this response. I still don’t agree, as I think Conrad is most comfortable in writing about psychology and that ships are simply the stage, rather than the subject. I have just finished reading The Secret Agent where Conrad demonstrates what looks like a remarkable understanding of women. I haven’t read any of his other books, so others may be able to comment on how widely your comment applies. You can’t generalise from Heart of Darkness, where the absence of women looks to be an intentional comment on the way that women were 'protected' from the imperial enterprise because it was dangerous and they had no need to know. My inference about “Tales of Men and Ships” is that this appellation usually goes to those such as Melville’s Moby Dick and the stories of Horatio Hornblower, and more recently to space opera. Melville is renowned as a master of the psychological portrait in a man’s world. There is a big difference between ‘men and ships’ being the subject and the stage for a novel. For Heart of Darkness they are just the stage.
What is ‘mileage’? |
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George Ricker
Junior
Gold Contributor
Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 315
Gender:
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:21 am Post subject:
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Robert Tulip wrote: There is a big difference between ‘men and ships’ being the subject and the stage for a novel. For Heart of Darkness they are just the stage.
Of course, there is. When an author like Conrad or Melville writes about men and ships, those things are, as you say, the setting. They are rarely the subject. I didn't say they were. You did. Or, you said, that was implied in a comment that was one line in a discussion about why the women characters in Heart of Darkness, which is either a long short story or a novella but hardly a novel, seem "sketchy." If you want to keep belaboring this, go right ahead. I won't waste any more time on it.
What is ‘mileage’?
The phrase, "your mileage may vary," simply indicates folks have different opinions about things. I use it now and then. Sorry if it caused any confusion.
George |
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender: 
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject:
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Please Miss, George Ricker said, to Robert Tulip:-
If you want to spin that into labeling him a "shallow action author," that's your privilege, but it's your inference, not my implication.
George - you are a little older than me.......so I like you. 
But I do think you are being a bit deliberately grumpy with Robert here, because Robert explained to me very graciously about the meaning of the three women at the beginning of the book and gave me the Greek Mythic philosophy behind it......when I knew there was something there...but didn't know what was missing..... I don't think we can accuse Robert of dubbing Conrad a 'shallow action author'.
There is nothing shallow about Conrad....even I know that....the book is about men and ships....as a background....it is also about male psychology - because Conrad was a man - how could he do otherwise?
I notice that I quite often address questions - by saying.....'Well I think'.. or 'Well, I feel'.... or 'This happened to me'.....giving an interminable anecdote.... and I feel embarrassed because people must think that I am totally self-absorbed.....but I do not know any other way of measuring, balancing other peoples' experiences, than by comparing them with my own......I don't know how it feels to be some one else......so in my way, I am telling the truth. Conrad....was writing about what he knew about, which I believe is the best way to do it. Don't you think? |
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WildCityWoman
Sophomore
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 282
Gender: 
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:37 am Post subject:
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George Ricker said . . .
Conrad's portrayal of the women in Heart of Darkness is sketchy at best. When he says anything at all, he seems to reflect the chauvinistic attitudes that were probably fairly typical for the time and place.
Yep - I agree with that - I personally think Hemingway is chauvinistic - although women are much included in his stories, he assumes he knows a lot about them - but he doesn't.
About the length of the story - there isn't much room to put any more characters anyway - I have a problem with writing short stories because of that - I get so many people going in my stories, there isn't room for them.
I don't write novels and doubt that I could - so if I want to get short stories published, I have to watch I don't bring a lot of people into them. |
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WildCityWoman
Sophomore
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 282
Gender:
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: Re: women in hearts of darkness
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| ginof wrote: |
i think george and wild city woman said it best. it would have distracted from the story.
The idea of a woman on such and adventure during this period of history doesn't sound plausible. Also, a woman would have been the wrong character to play someone so clueless about the true nature of kurtz |
I don't think Kurtz's fiance would have known him in the same way that the men involved in the story would have.
It wasn't the kind of thing a fella' would have discussed with a woman in those days anyway - women (most women) wouldn't have been that interested.
This book isn't in danger of being labelled as 'chic lit'.
 |
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Ophelia
Beyond Awesome
Fiction Moderator
Book Discussion Leader
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
Gender:
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:51 am Post subject:
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Ginof wrote:
| Quote: |
| Also, a woman would have been the wrong character to play someone so clueless about the true nature of kurtz. |
I had missed this line by ginof.  |
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WildCityWoman
Sophomore
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 282
Gender:
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:51 am Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
ginof said:-
The idea of a woman on such and adventure during this period of history doesn't sound plausible. Also, a woman would have been the wrong character to play someone so clueless about the true nature of kurtz
Yet at this period of history - there was Florence Nightingale and Elizabeth Fry - working against inhumanity to man......because...(not in spite of)....the fact that they were women. |
Yeah, but there were very few women around who were like 'Nightengale' and 'Fry'.
Most women, in those days, were coveted by their fathers/brothers/husbands - they weren't 'allowed' to go running off to places dark and deep.
There were a few adventurous women, of course . . . in fiction and in real life - but they didn't make up the 'majority' of women.
If women went to war, it was as 'nurses' or somebody's 'secretary'.
Today, the girls march out to war . . . right or wrong? I dunno' . . . after the 911 hit, I was so angry I wished I could go join up with some army, get a gun, sling it over my shoulder and join the 'war'.
The only thing is, I don't know if I could actually shoot somebody . . . unless somebody was hurting somebody else - like my daughter, my granddaughter - my husband - one of my own - I might shoot somebody, I dunno'.
As much as I say that - that it made me feel like 'going to war', my basic opinion is that 'women shouldn't be there'.
Not because we're weak - no; I don't think that at all - some women are brilliant fighters - I've seen women kick the itshay outta' men a foot taller than them - but because we are women - we are different than men and there's nothing wrong with that.
And I don't think that men should be sent off to war as young as they are -I think a man oughta' have a few years on him and a lot of training before he's sent off to fight these wars.
Maybe if people were trained better in the art of communication we wouldn't have to go to war at all.
That would be nice.
I'm rambling . . . sorry. |
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WildCityWoman
Sophomore
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 282
Gender:
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:15 am Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
I do see what you mean, but do you remember the two women at the very beginning of book. At the offices where he went to be designated his ship? One was knitting if I remember correctly.
What were they about? Can anyone enlighten me? I feel as though I missed something there....... |
I think they were Marlowe's aunts.
(Or Kurtz's aunts? Dunno') |
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WildCityWoman
Sophomore
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 282
Gender:
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:17 am Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
Please miss, Robert said:-
Moirae: Clotho spun the thread of life from her distaff onto her spindle; Lachesis measured the thread of life with her rod; Atropos was the cutter of the thread of life.
Ooooh Thank you Robert - for that explanation. How fabulous!!! I am going back to read it all again.
I am so glad you are joining in this discussion.....don't go away will you!! |
Oh . . . ok - so I'm wrong about the 'aunts'. But there were two aunts in this story? Or one . . . I'm just vaguely recalling now - been a couple of weeks since I looked at it. |
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WildCityWoman
Sophomore
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 282
Gender:
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| Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:24 am Post subject:
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Penelope said . . .
Some people, in this day and age....in their fear.....treat the Bible as though it is God. It is not God....it is just a collection of books.
Unquote
I liked that . . . very good explanation of The Bible.
It was written by 'man' - other than is depicted in The Ten Commandments, God didn't write it himself - it was inspired by God, God's prophets and written by man. |
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