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"Wicked" by Gregory Maguire

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Constance963
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Ophelia wrote:
Tammy and Constance,

I think we may need to create new threads for different questions about Wicked, what do you think? Otherwise we may end up with one very long crammed thread.

Tammy, you may be the one to bring in new questions at this stage, so perhaps just think of starting a new thread as you do so.

All this is very interesting to me because as I read I keep thinking that for the life of me I wouldn't know what questions to ask about this book...
:)
Ophelia - That might be a good idea if we are going to get a good discussion going. Do you think it will be easier to start threads for particular sections of the book or just particular topics, such as Melena's pregnancy, religious issues, political issues etc.?

Tammy - I have to agree with you about Toto - very annoying little dog. I don't want to give anything away about the pregnancy since I have finished the book, but I have heard pregnant women say things like they feel like their body is not their own anymore. Never having been pregnant yet myself, I can't really comment on it, but to me a comment like that sounds like a takeover of your body by the baby so women who may not want the baby they are carrying may see this as bad thing.
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Ophelia

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Constance wrote:
Ophelia - That might be a good idea if we are going to get a good discussion going. Do you think it will be easier to start threads for particular sections of the book or just particular topics, such as Melena's pregnancy, religious issues, political issues etc.?
.

For the moment I was thinking of threads on an as-you-need basis; we posted simultaneously, I was starting a thread about Melina so I could answer Tammy's questions.

Then I thought we needed a thread about religion...

You've read the whole book, so you could create a few more in advance.

And as for threads for particular sections of the book, why not have them as well?
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tlpounds
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Ophelia and Constance,

Why don't we keep the threads consistent with other book discussions: divided into sections of the book. Before my reading group began the book, I came up with an outline of how we would divide the book and when we would have each division's discussion. I will post our group's reading/discussion outline below, and if you like it, let's use it. We divided the book into 8 sections:

Week 1: "Prologue: On the Yellow Brick Road" (p 1) - "Munchkinlanders" (p 80)

Week 2: Galinda (p 81) through Boq, Ch. 4 (p 150)

Week 3: Boq, Ch. 5 (p 150) through "Gillikin" (p 228)

Week 4: "City of Emeralds" (p231) through The Voyage Out, Ch.1 (p 298)

Week 5: The Voyage Out, Ch. 2 (p 299) through The Jasper Gates of Kiamo Ko (p 366)

Week 6: Uprisings (p 367) through The Murder and Its Afterlife, Ch. 3 (p 445)

Week 7: The Murder and Its Afterlife, Ch. 4 (p 445) through The Murder and Its Afterlife, Ch. 17 (p 515)

Week 8: Murder and Its Afterlife, Ch. 18 (p 515) through Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister (p 538)

What do you think?
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Constance963
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I think either way would work - as needed or by chapter. There are common themes that run though the entire book but we could just disucss them on a chapter by chapter basis as well. Since everyone else but me is currently reading the chapter by chaper may work better for you as you go through the book.
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tlpounds
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Constance963 wrote:I believe most of the religions in the book are the author's invention with the exception of the pagonism. The Pleasure Faith follows the prophecies of the Time Dragon, which Elphaba coincidentally was born in.
If Maguire intended the religions in his book to be direct parallels to existing religions, the I would wager that Unionism would stand for Christianity because they believe in an "Unnamed God" (like the Jewish use 'Yahweh' to stand for God) and that other religions (e.g. the Pleasure Faith and Lurlinistic Paganism) are sacrilegious/blasphemy. In my opinion, (though I'm not totally straight on this myself) the Pleasure Faith represents Hedonists and/or those who follow a religion that includes magic. They would be those who follow no particular faith, but indulge their desires with abandon, or those who, instead of following an unseen deity, follow sorcery and other magical arts (divination, ceremonial magick, etc.). Lurlinistic Paganism would simply be a form of pagan religion.

However, I neither think Maguire was trying to represent any particular religion from our society through the ones in his book, nor that he was trying to find fault or place blame with any religion. In contrast, what I think he was doing by giving the religions in his book familiar qualities/dogma to the ones we have in real life was to try and make his religions as familiar as possible to us so that we could relate to them. Once we could do that, we could more easily begin thinking critically about religion in general
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Since it's OK with Constance, I'm going to continue the discussion about religion on a different thread.
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The Elephant.

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I'll go back to the main thread as I am still not sure what the more practical way is.

Tammy asked a question about Elphaba a while ago, and i don't know where it is-- anyway, whenI read it I had no answer.

I am now reading the "In the Vinkus" chapter, and I wonder whether I have skipped a few pages.


p 306, the Elephant says to Elphaba: "Daughter of the Dragon, I too am under a spell".

Is Elphaba under a spell?

Elphaba tells the Elephant she is here "To retire from the world after makingf sure of the safety of the survivors of my lover".

Is her lover dead then?


Now here is a quotation I think Tammy could use for parallels with the real world:

p307, the Elephant says: " When the times are a crucible, when the air is full of crisis, those who are the most themselves are the victims".

The text seems to refer to changing one's physical appearance at will, but one could interpret it as being about the dangers of insisting on being yourself in dangerous or difficult times.
I don't know anybody who can change his physical appearance at will, or turn from a human to an Elephant, but I notice that the people who excell at showing different facets of themselves according to their audience or changing times do very well in the world. They survive, and the really good ones always kep on top of things.
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tlpounds
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Re: The Elephant.

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Ophelia wrote:p307, the Elephant says: " When the times are a crucible, when the air is full of crisis, those who are the most themselves are the victims".

The text seems to refer to changing one's physical appearance at will, but one could interpret it as being about the dangers of insisting on being yourself in dangerous or difficult times.
I don't know anybody who can change his physical appearance at will, or turn from a human to an Elephant, but I notice that the people who excell at showing different facets of themselves according to their audience or changing times do very well in the world. They survive, and the really good ones always kep on top of things.
Ophelia,

You asked some great questions here, and I can't wait to get to them. However, I'm at work now :( so I can't answer them yet, as I want to give my response the time it deserves. Thanks for your thoughts, and I'll get back to you later tonight!
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tlpounds
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Re: The Elephant.

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Ophelia, sorry I didn't get back to you last night like I said I would. I came home and vegged in front of the TV like I haven't in a long time. (Rough week at work, you know?) Anyway, let me get to a couple of your question this morning:
Ophelia wrote:p 306, the Elephant says to Elphaba: "Daughter of the Dragon, I too am under a spell".

Is Elphaba under a spell?

Elphaba tells the Elephant she is here "To retire from the world after making sure of the safety of the survivors of my lover".

Is her lover dead then?
I never got the feeling the whole time I've been reading the book (which I am now up to page 366) that Elphaba was under a spell. However, the author has fashioned (from what I get anyway) Princess Nastoya ("The Elephant") as extremely old and wise, and therefore could see deeper/know more than the reader (or Elphaba for that matter) realizes is going on in the complex lives of Maguire's characters. Perhaps Elphaba is under the spell of the Time Dragon in which she was born? I guess my answer is that we just don't know yet if, indeed, Elphaba is under a spell.

To answer your second question, yes, Elphaba's lover is dead. Do you remember in the book where Fiyero was killed by the Gale Force (I assume it was the Gale Force, anyway...)? There was an entire chapter and then some about how Elphaba and Fiyero became lovers, and then a chapter on how he came to be dead.
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Re: The Elephant.

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Ophelia wrote:p307, the Elephant says: " When the times are a crucible, when the air is full of crisis, those who are the most themselves are the victims".

The text seems to refer to changing one's physical appearance at will, but one could interpret it as being about the dangers of insisting on being yourself in dangerous or difficult times.
I don't know anybody who can change his physical appearance at will, or turn from a human to an Elephant, but I notice that the people who excell at showing different facets of themselves according to their audience or changing times do very well in the world. They survive, and the really good ones always kep on top of things.
First, GREAT quote, Ophelia!? (I, too, highlighted it in my book as something to bring up with you guys later.) I am so glad you brought it up for discussion, though, because I would have if you hadn't :beer2:

As far as applying this observation to real life, I don't Maguire was intending it to actually mean shape-shifting. When times are dangerous, it's not that we can disappear; but, in a sense, we can become something different. Persecuted peoples throughout history have pretended to be something they're not to avoid danger. Homosexuals are one of the first examples that come to mind. Not that being a homosexual is completely acceptable in society today, but before (when the danger of "coming out" was even more real), men (and women) denied their lifestyle --even marrying the opposite sex to maintain that lie. They did so because being openly gay could have cost them their families, livelihood, even their lives.
During the 1800's in America, children who were of mixed race (black and white descent) usually pretended to be "all-white" so that they wouldn't have to endure the stigma and discrimination that went along with being "colored."
I think there are some on this forum who can relate to this next statement: Being atheist in the Bible Belt --although not necessarily dangerous --is quite uncomfortable. During my wild years in college, I owned a beat-up car with tons of bumper stickers on the back (most of them being critiques of religion and politics). Anyway, I can't tell you how many times I came out to my car with some pamphlet or proselytizing material about my soul or damnation. When people would learn through conversation or what have you about my non-belief, they would try to debate with me, invite me to church, give me a bible, etc. to "win" me back. I felt like I was hounded --so much so that I stopped telling people who I was. If they talked about religion, I let them believe my silence was a sign of solidarity.
So, I think Maguire's quote above rings true with every persecuted group throughout history. We do hide when we are being hounded or are in danger. All animals do. It's a defense mechanism --a way to survive.
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