Penelope, DWill and Robert Tulip about religious belief.

Penelope · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject:

I think we are agreed, Frank, about the iniquities of Organised Religion.

I have been thinking about what you said some time ago - about what difference religion makes to me.....it has taken me until now to formulate a succinct reply:-

Given that we know that natural disasters, happen with monotonous regularity and that man-made disasters happen with more or less the same frequency.....(these man-made ones I find even more distressing btw), I feel that I cannot just live from day to day without regard to how I might cope with one of these disasters if it affected me personally.

For instance....I am at an age where old and loved friends and relations seem to be getting seriously ill or dying....with more and more frequency. Now, I am not foolish enough to petition 'God' and say, 'Please don't let my husband die before me'....or 'please don't let my children get ill'.....but without a spritual strengthening.....achieved by meditation. contemplation or prayer.....I would not be in any state to handle these disasters and keep my sanity. So I don't pray for the impossible...but I pray for the inner resources to cope with them. For wisdom....and enlightenment......which gives freedom from constant fear.

Some people must not feel the need to build up their inner resources - maybe they have gained that strength already.....I am just attempting to explain how it is for me.

Frank 013 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:

Thanks to Robert Tulip for pointing out the relevance of the thread, after all. The sticking point I come to when blame is ascribed to beliefs for producing one sort of another of atrocity, is whether the beliefs are merely the convenient explanation, the one we can most readily identify. If those particlular beliefs were not there, another set might do as well to stand as the cause. What I'm suggesting is that, within the human heart of darkness is something as basic as a greed that will stop at nothing to satisfy itself, and needs no covering of religious belief to play itself out along a violent course (although a covering of religion provides a good disguise). In other words, if the particular religious beliefs are involved, they are secondary. I think this could be consistent with Conrad's theme. I don't think he means to indict Christian beliefs; his target must be wider than that.

Through all of history, humans have been, in the main, religious. Irreligion has a much shorter track record. As Penelope pointed out, it is not a stellar one, either, in terms of benevolence. If we make a correction by saying that ideological fanaticism is in fact the true cause, we are moving away from making religion the scapegoat. We all seem to need to be able to point to a particular villain. My skeptical view is that we probably can't.

Frank 013 · Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject:

Frank 013 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:44 am Post subject:

I was going back through this thread and I saw something that I missed...

Frank 013 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:02 am Post subject:

Atilla’s religion…

While it is true that Atilla was no Christian and paid little attention to traditional religious fan fair he did seem to be motivated by superstition.

Penelope · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:29 am Post subject:

Frank - I stand corrected on the subject of Vlad.

Sigh......

I guess there are no depths to which the human race cannot sink....and yet there seems to be glass ceiling through which we cannot rise......

Frank 013 · Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:48 am Post subject:

It has been said that religion or not good people will always do good and evil people will always do evil, but for good people to do evil it takes religion.

As far as the glass ceiling goes… I wouldn’t give up on humanity just yet, we are still learning and it is a long process hampered by many things, one of which is religion but that is certainly not our only hurtle, despite these setbacks progress has been made and I hope will continue.

Later

Robert Tulip · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:40 am Post subject:

Frank 013 · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:

Penelope · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject:

Is there such a thing as true altruism then Frank?

If there is.....we must have evolved far further than I realised......I hadn't noticed. Sad

Hope your knee is better today.....you know what I think about the benefits of kneeling!!! Twisted Evil

Frank 013 · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject:

DWill · Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject:

[quote="Frank 013"]

As far as the track record of secular government… currently on this planet the most civilized, crimeless, fair and free governments are the most secular ones.

I just wanted to quickly clarify that in no way was I suggesting that secular governments have a bad track record. Governments should always be secular, a view that puts me in conflict with most Muslims, probably. What I was trying to say was that ideology that declares itself as atheist has also seemingly been responsible for for millions of murders in the 20th Century. (I say "seemingly" because I don't necessarily agree that particular beliefs we ascribe to people are responsible for what they do.)

I admire the way you've patiently and logically pursued your argument. I might appear stubbornly resistant to your evidence for the inherent danger of monotheistic belief (are you less down on polytheism?). If I am stubborn, the reason is that, as a diagnosis of why things go so wrong in societies, the religion thesis seems so wanting. If you could remove a religious belief that apparently is perpetuating suffering in Africa, unfortunately the way would not then be paved to enlightened action. There could be many other "reasons", not based in religion, invented to not do what seems to be right. One leader in South Africa promotes belief that AIDS is a myth. This comes from no religion, but clearly could be harmful if others are taken in by his reasoning.

Bottom line for me, I guess: humans are just as dangerous without apparent religious motivation as with it.

Frank 013 · Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:18 am Post subject:


	FORUMS	ABOUT	BOOKS	VIDEOS	TRANSCRIPTS	LINKS	BLOGS	DONATE	CONTACT