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Frank 013 
Beyond Awesome
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Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1152
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject:
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Penelope
No, I don't think it makes them any more dangerous. |
I disagree for the reasons mentioned above and I see little reason to repeat them, but I will add this… Only a religious person could believe that they will be eternally rewarded for murdering another human being.
If this does not make religion a more dangerous belief system I do not know what would.
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Penelope
Blind devotion to any system or person is wrong. |
I totally agree with that…
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Penelope
And you can argue against religions - for instance.....I am a Protestant.......because at some time in our history we protested against the practices of the Roman Catholic Church........So that wasn't blind adherence. |
No, it was a disagreement in the interpretation of scripture which ended up causing murderous clashes between the two factions whose leaders both saw their interpretations as the only correct one and led their followers against the opposing sect.
And while I admit that it is true that people can argue against the church, few ever do, most accept church gospel as fact despite the overwhelming evidence against, at least in this country anyway.
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Penelope
And in fact, if you look at the people who are working to help the socially deprived in the World today......I bet a larger percentage of them are religious than not. |
I would make the same bet but for a different reason… because the planet’s population is also overwhelmingly religious.
Of the many religious people I know none of them went to help out when hurricane Katrina hit, but of the few atheists I am in touch with I know of one that volunteered to go… it was me, and we all donated money if we had it to spare.
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Penelope
But it is their faith that inspires them to care about their fellow man. |
I do not think that is true at all… I think that even without religion kind people would still be generous and nasty people would still be poop heads; what religion does offer is the organization to make things happen, people unaffiliated with a church have a much harder time getting their help to the people who need it.
I also think that without religions there would be independent secular organizations that did similar work… I think this because they already exist.
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Lawrence
Experienced
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Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: HI!
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| Is there a chance you two could take a look at my blog and leave your comments. I'd be much obliged. Lawrenceindestin |
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Penelope
Stupendously Brilliant
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Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 735
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Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject:
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I don't know how I got into this argument.
I am not being an apologist for organised religion.......I don't like it myself.
But I can't live a complete life without some sort of 'God' relationship - I don't insist that every one else does the same though. |
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
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Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1152
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:31 am Post subject:
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Penelope
I don't know how I got into this argument.
I am not being an apologist for organized religion.......I don't like it myself. |
I know you don’t and if it seemed like I was beating up on you I apologize.
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Penelope
But I can't live a complete life without some sort of 'God' relationship - I don't insist that every one else does the same though. |
I respect that… probably more than I let on in these discussions.
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:36 am Post subject:
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lawrenceindestin
Is there a chance you two could take a look at my blog and leave your comments? I'd be much obliged. |
I read your blog and will post my comments there... I will say that I agree with much of what is written there.
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Penelope
Stupendously Brilliant
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Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 735
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Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject:
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I think we are agreed, Frank, about the iniquities of Organised Religion.
I have been thinking about what you said some time ago - about what difference religion makes to me.....it has taken me until now to formulate a succinct reply:-
Given that we know that natural disasters, happen with monotonous regularity and that man-made disasters happen with more or less the same frequency.....(these man-made ones I find even more distressing btw), I feel that I cannot just live from day to day without regard to how I might cope with one of these disasters if it affected me personally.
For instance....I am at an age where old and loved friends and relations seem to be getting seriously ill or dying....with more and more frequency. Now, I am not foolish enough to petition 'God' and say, 'Please don't let my husband die before me'....or 'please don't let my children get ill'.....but without a spritual strengthening.....achieved by meditation. contemplation or prayer.....I would not be in any state to handle these disasters and keep my sanity. So I don't pray for the impossible...but I pray for the inner resources to cope with them. For wisdom....and enlightenment......which gives freedom from constant fear.
Some people must not feel the need to build up their inner resources - maybe they have gained that strength already.....I am just attempting to explain how it is for me. |
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
BookTalk.org Moderator
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1152
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Location: NY
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:
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Penelope
I think we are agreed, Frank, about the iniquities of Organized Religion. |
Yes we do seem to have reached a consensus in that category.
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Penelope
Now, I am not foolish enough to petition 'God' and say, 'Please don't let my husband die before me'....or 'please don't let my children get ill'.....but without a spiritual strengthening.....achieved by meditation. contemplation or prayer.....I would not be in any state to handle these disasters and keep my sanity. So I don't pray for the impossible...but I pray for the inner resources to cope with them. For wisdom....and enlightenment......which gives freedom from constant fear.
Some people must not feel the need to build up their inner resources - maybe they have gained that strength already.....I am just attempting to explain how it is for me. |
Like I said before, I have no interest in denying you (or anybody for that matter) that right. If it truly helps you then that’s great, more power to you.
My real problem lies with the obviously false dogma of religions and their attempt to push their agenda on everyone.
Of course I think I have made that relatively clear and we both seem to agree.
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DWill
Masters
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 490
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject:
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Thanks to Robert Tulip for pointing out the relevance of the thread, after all. The sticking point I come to when blame is ascribed to beliefs for producing one sort of another of atrocity, is whether the beliefs are merely the convenient explanation, the one we can most readily identify. If those particlular beliefs were not there, another set might do as well to stand as the cause. What I'm suggesting is that, within the human heart of darkness is something as basic as a greed that will stop at nothing to satisfy itself, and needs no covering of religious belief to play itself out along a violent course (although a covering of religion provides a good disguise). In other words, if the particular religious beliefs are involved, they are secondary. I think this could be consistent with Conrad's theme. I don't think he means to indict Christian beliefs; his target must be wider than that.
Through all of history, humans have been, in the main, religious. Irreligion has a much shorter track record. As Penelope pointed out, it is not a stellar one, either, in terms of benevolence. If we make a correction by saying that ideological fanaticism is in fact the true cause, we are moving away from making religion the scapegoat. We all seem to need to be able to point to a particular villain. My skeptical view is that we probably can't. |
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject:
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DWill
In other words, if the particular religious beliefs are involved, they are secondary. I think this could be consistent with Conrad's theme. I don't think he means to indict Christian beliefs; his target must be wider than that. |
I might agree but I see little exterior motive besides the adherence to dogma for things like denying birth control to Catholic Africans, which causes thousands of deaths each year due to STDs, or denying gays the right to marry.
And even if the leaders of these religions are using the religion to mask other less than pious motives, it is the power that religion has over the general populace that allows them to abuse it in such a manner.
Let’s use Hitler as an example… Hitler may, or may not have been a firm believer in a personal god. By all accounts he was, but I will allow some doubt because as a public figure he might have just been going through the motions for credibility.
Either way, Hitler used the religious belief of his people to manipulate their behavior allowing for some of the worst atrocities ever recorded to take place.
Religions encourage blind devotion in its followers; many religions have established a (false) reputation for a force of good, as long as the action taken is in the name of said god. Religions and their leaders claim to speak for their gods and claim to be enforcing the gods will; this lays the ground work for rampant abuse. Finally many religions claim that action taken in the gods name is rewarded in the afterlife.
To a believer this motivation can be far stronger than any earthly calling.
I will agree that secular forms of blind idealism can be abused in such a manner but few have the motivating power that religion has and none have had the staying power.
As far as the track record of secular government… currently on this planet the most civilized, crimeless, fair and free governments are the most secular ones.
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
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Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1152
Gender:
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:44 am Post subject:
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I was going back through this thread and I saw something that I missed...
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Penelope
Vlad the Impaler - Atilla the Hun.....Genkis Khan......were not particularly religious!!!!! |
I do not know much about the religious natures of Atilla or Genkis Khan, but I can assure you that Vlad was a strict Christian.
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The fictional story of Bram Stoker's vampire, Dracula, derived from an actual historical man, Vlad the Impaler (also known as Vlad Tepes and Vlad Dracula).
Although Stoker's fictional Dracula has produced fear in the hearts of readers for a hundred years, the real Dracula proved far more dangerous, scarier and real.
Vlad Tepes got born sometime between 1430 and 1431 in a Transylvanian town called Schassburg (aka Sighisoara). Vlad did not live as a vampire; but far worse: as a Christian. Like his father, he joined the Order of the Dragon (Dracul), an ancient Christian society dedicated to fighting Turks and heretics. Vlad earned the name Tepes (TSEH-pesh) which means "Impaler" a reference to Vlad's favorite form of punishment.
In 1408 the Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund, created the Order of the Dragon. Its statutes required its members to defend the Cross and do battle against its enemies and infidels. Vlad II took the name Dracul and his son, Vlad III took the name Dracula (Son of Dracul).
On Easter Sunday of 1459, Vlad committed his first major act of revenge by arresting the Boyer families whom he held responsible for the death of his father and brother. He impaled the older ones outside the city walls and forced the rest to build what people now identify as Castle Dracula.
In addition to disloyal people and Turks, Vlad regularly impaled infidels, gypsies, lazy peasants and "impure" women. He would pound wooden stakes (like a stauros ) up through their torsos, lollipop style.
Vlad also skinned people alive, roasted them over red-hot coals and by one account from the mid 1400s, "stuck stakes in both breasts of mothers and thrust their babies onto them."
The fictional vampire, Count Dracula killed around 16 characters; the Christian Vlad Dracula killed over 20,000 actual living breathing people.
Consider also that Christianity claims that men lived over 900 years (Adam, Methuselah. etc.), the practice of the Eucharist (consuming bread and wine, the literal drinking of blood and eating the flesh of Christ), praying in front of a statue of a bleeding and dying man staked to lumber, the belief of the rise and resurrection from death, and the promise that, you too, will live eternal as long as you eat the flesh and drink the blood (see John 6:54), and you have all the elements of diabolic vampirism. I don't wish to unduly frighten anyone, but consider that anyone who passes you by as you walk the streets, might serve as a member among millions who visit dark churches every Sunday to receive their weekly fix of drinking Christ's blood in their ritual called communion. Now I don't for one moment believe in this sacrament, but if there occurred any truth to it, wouldn't we, by definition, have to consider them vampires?
For those of us who do not believe, Christianity and Vlad the Impaler represents horror filled examples of how religion can create fear, torture and death. As in that classic movie line, "Be afraid. Be very afraid."
nobeliefs.com/facts.htm#anchor237925 |
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