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Ophelia 
Beyond Awesome
Fiction Moderator
Book Discussion Leader
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
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Location: France
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 Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: Penelope, DWill and Robert Tulip about religious belief.
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Hello Penelope, Robert and Will.
I've been wondering for a few days how to redirect the "religious beliefs" discussion from the Heart of Darkness threads without annoying anybody, especially you three, whose input I value so much.
I am not of the opinion that when one discusses somethig, one should stick to the subject at hand 100 % of the time, and send the thought police if anyone strays.
Sometimes one thing leads to another, and a worthwhile discussion emerges .
Telling people "Please discuss this in the religion and belief forum" might stop the impetus of something that started informally.
Since the belief discussion is growing, I find it has become a little distracting at this point and I have started this new thread.
If you want to change the heading of the thread just tell me.
You can also give me feed back about this later: did my interfering stop your discussion in its track for example (I hope not!).  |
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DWill
Sophomore
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
Gender: 
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:54 am Post subject:
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Ophelia,
No, that's fine the way you have handled it. Thanks for doing such a good job as the discussion leader. I'd like to stick to HD, too, but sometimes I dart out a bit to the side.
The only other thing I had to say about religious belief right now is to clarify that I don't see belief itself--even belief that we could label as irrational--as a problem any greater than other ideas that we get stuck on and unfortunately try to impose on others (is democarcy one of these?). There does seem to be a line of thought today that untestable religious belief is bad, period. Sam Harris presents an extreme form of this view. Another view is that only when religion becomes an ideology does it become dangerous. But even as ideology, defining a way of thought and life, religion is not always destructive, is it? The Amish have an ideological religion, yet they don't seek to make others accept it; they just try to remain in their own world. We might not approve of their fundamentalism, but it seems okay to me to leave them to their traditional ways. |
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
BookTalk.org Moderator
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1029
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Location: NY
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject:
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I will say this about religious belief, no matter how harmless it appears on the surface it always remains volatile. People with differing attitudes and temperaments can always use their belief as justification to cause harm to others simply because those others are "different" and a "danger" to their way of life.
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Our history has shown that the blood letting has occurred mostly as a result of religions or other belief-systems, not from the people who reject them.
Beliefs also act as barriers towards further understanding. Even the most productive scientists and philosophers through the ages have held beliefs which prevented them from seeing beyond their discoveries and inventions.
For example, Aristotle believed in a prime mover, a "god" that moves the sun and moon and objects through space. With a belief such as this, one cannot possibly understand the laws of gravitation or inertia. Even Einstein owned beliefs which barred him from understanding the consequences of quantum mechanics. He could not accept pure randomness in subatomic physics, thus he bore his famous belief: "God does not play dice." Regardless, physicists now realize that for quantum mechanics to work, nature not only plays with dice, but randomness serves as a requirement if one wishes to predict with any statistical accuracy.
nobeliefs.com/beliefs.htm |
Belief, (especially religious belief) acts as a stumbling block in modern society. Their failed attempts to explain the workings of the world have and continue to hold back progress in both the scientific and social disciplines and when looking at their track records it is hard to see religions as anything but harmful.
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Ophelia
Beyond Awesome
Fiction Moderator
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Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
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Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject:
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| Our history has shown that the blood letting has occurred mostly as a result of religions or other belief-systems, not from the people who reject them |
I'd like to believe that atheists on the whole are less dangerous... but alas they too can hold beliefs which cost their fellow men dearly, like Stalin or Mao. |
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject:
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Vlad the Impaler - Atilla the Hun.....Genkis Khan......were not particularly religious!!!!!
If there is such a thing as 'Gaia' we are all responsible and we all need to face the heartlessness that is in all of us and attempt to remedy it.
It takes courage.....honesty....and communication.....it can be attempted...only.
I am religious because I think if it were left to Karma....justice...we would be doomed.....but I believe in God's Grace......
If anyone wants to look up what is the meaning of Grace.....
That is our hope - that is all that was left in Pandora's Box.
Sorry Ophelia - we are off topic again aren't we? This is a 'live' discussion. We all have differing opinions......but we all know that we are discussing something that really matters.....and perhaps that is why 'Heart of Darkness' is a 'classic'. |
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Ophelia
Beyond Awesome
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Book Discussion Leader
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
Gender:
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject:
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Penelope, I officially sub-contract this thread to you, Dwill and Robert to discuss belief, in whatever definition you choose, so you can't be off topic here.  |
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Robert Tulip
Freshman
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 200
Gender:
Location: Canberra
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| Vlad the Impaler - Atilla the Hun.....Genkis Khan......were not particularly religious!!!!! If there is such a thing as 'Gaia' we are all responsible and we all need to face the heartlessness that is in all of us and attempt to remedy it. It takes courage.....honesty....and communication.....it can be attempted...only. I am religious because I think if it were left to Karma....justice...we would be doomed.....but I believe in God's Grace...... If anyone wants to look up what is the meaning of Grace..... That is our hope - that is all that was left in Pandora's Box. Sorry Ophelia - we are off topic again aren't we? This is a 'live' discussion. We all have differing opinions......but we all know that we are discussing something that really matters.....and perhaps that is why 'Heart of Darkness' is a 'classic'. |
First my little harrumph. (and Bill Gates just put a second r in my harumph as I am using his Word program, quite an imperial parable there somewhere). I don’t think the discussion of belief in the Heart of Darkness thread was off-topic. The book is about how the European system of belief enabled the conquest of Africa. And Christianity was a central weapon, using dogma as a mechanism of social control and unification, with false toxic prejudiced pathologies, such as heaven and the virgin birth, informing the outlook to justify the view of others as sub-human. Sure, Conrad does not delve into explicit theology, but it is a major necessary interpretive factor.
I welcome Penelope’s invocation of Gaia, as the spirit of our planet really must be the context of world redemption. And grace is part of our karma. Causality produces increasing complexity in a chaotic system such as our planet – we are an eddy in the universal entropic run down. |
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Frank 013
Beyond Awesome
BookTalk.org Moderator
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 1029
Gender:
Location: NY
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:02 am Post subject:
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Ophelia
I'd like to believe that atheists on the whole are less dangerous... but alas they too can hold beliefs which cost their fellow men dearly, like Stalin or Mao. |
True enough… the real problem is the blind devotion to false ideology weather it be religious or not.
However that blind devotion is encouraged in most religions and that makes them more dangerous than other beliefs that are not claimed as divinely inspired. Men can be wrong and argued against... Gods will (if you believe in such a thing) cannot.
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:51 am Post subject:
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Robert said:
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| And grace is part of our karma. |
Well thank you Robert, I really needed to hear that.
Frank said:
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the real problem is the blind devotion to false ideology weather it be religious or not.
However that blind devotion is encouraged in most religions and that makes them more dangerous than other beliefs that are not claimed as divinely inspired. |
No, I don't think it makes them any more dangerous. We are just having discussions in this Country now, about swearing alegiance to the Queen. Well, our queen is very nice and I would swear alegiance to her any day, but there have been monarchs of this Country to whom I would never, ever think of giving my alegiance.
Blind devotion to any system or person is wrong. And you can argue against religions - for instance.....I am a Protestant.......because at some time in our history we protested against the practises of the Roman Catholic Church........So that wasn't blind adherance.
And in fact, if you look at the people who are working to help the socially deprived in the World today......I bet a larger percentage of them are religious than not. I don't believe that all of them agree 100% with their own denomination - but it is their faith that inspires them to care about their fellow man.
I don't agree 100% with the Salvation Army - but they are organised to give practical help - and I know that they do it for the same reasons as I want to do it. And they let me help, they don't insist that I accept all of their dogma. |
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Ophelia
Beyond Awesome
Fiction Moderator
Book Discussion Leader
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
Gender:
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject:
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Penelope wrote:
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| And in fact, if you look at the people who are working to help the socially deprived in the World today......I bet a larger percentage of them are religious than not. |
If one pursues this line of reasoning, the problem I often think about is:
If you imagine a pair of scales, on which you would put, on one side all the people who have been killed or harmed by people moved by their relious belief, and on the other side, people who have been saved from, let's say starvation, by religious believers who applied the principle of charity, which would be heavier?
I'd say historically the side of harm done in the name of a god would be heavier. |
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