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IV-1- HD: imperialism, ancient history and Victorian era.

#44: Feb. - Mar. 2008 (Fiction)
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Robert Tulip

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The view is dark from the core to the periphery. Dependency theory, although suspect in its economics, presents a useful model of imperial relations. Those at the imperial core are unable to see the full humanity of those at the periphery. Such vision could undermine the imperial project. Hence the empire creates myths or cultivates nonchalance regarding the other. Australia is quite nonchalant about the Pacific Island countries while the USA is nonchalant about everyone else. Pilate was nonchalant about Jesus. France is nonchalant about West Africa, and the USSR made a show of its indifference to the captive nations. This plays out in popular culture, where the events of the periphery become lurid images without narrative coherence, and in politics, where leaders use versions of that old British slogan from the coat of arms - honi soit qui mal y pense - rough translation, I don't care what you think.

Conrad is drawing attention to the luridity in imperial vision. His fearful images of 'savages' are designed to illustrate how the Europeans think on encountering Africans. Conrad is mocking not the Africans but the Europeans.
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Australia is quite nonchalant about the Pacific Island countries while the USA is nonchalant about everyone else.

The above is a quote from RobertTulip:-

I do feel silly - I feel as though I am saying 'Please Miss, Robert said a rude word'.....

Robert you are a lucid and gifted writer (poster). But I am rushing to the defence of the USA here. It is not current accepted zeitgeist....(I don't know how to spell that!). USA has given us some rotten consumer products in the area of 'media' consumption (The Simpsons - excepted).

But having lived in the aftermath of the Second World War....the USA have been generous to a notable degree to the UK. They, like the Romans in the past, have been a comparatively benevolent world power.

Sadly, in recent years that seems to have lapsed.....but maybe they will soon have a 'Female' democratic president......maybe things will get better, on a ethical level at least.

Just wanted to make myself clear on that one.
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Please Miss, Robert Tulip said:_

honi soit qui mal y pense - rough translation, I don't care what you think.

Shame on you Robert Tulip - You know what this means and what it does not mean.

You are obviously a caring, educated, thinking and gifted person....using soundbites....stoppit.
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Colonialism, imperialism and the Heart of Darkness

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Hello everybody. I'm new to this forum.

I have read all the replies so far and someone talked about the difference of colonialism and imperialism and said that while the US would be considered an imperialist power, its not a colonialist one.

Imperialism strikes me as the wider of the two terms, colonialism being one variety of it: an empire can be bound together by one or many factors such as political influence, military presence, different kinds of economic ties, cultural influence and so on. The most important defining feature of an empire would be the relationship between the core and the periphery, which would be an unequal one.

The relationship between the core and the periphery would not necessarily have to be disadvantageous to the former. If one take the example of the Roman empire there were many benefits such as roads, a greater degree of stability, increased trade, cultural exchange and so on.

Colonialism, on the other hand, is in my opinion a more historically bound term referring to the acquisition of non-European territories by the powers of Europe during the period 1492-1914, especially the Scramble for Africa in the second half of the 19th century. While an imperialst power can dominate the periphery in many ways, colonialism is associated with territorial domination. In my opinion colonialism is also the more negatively charged term.

Now I move on to The Heart of Darkness. Many of you have mentioned the reference to the Roman Empire in the first chapter. Another, as I see it, very central passage is this, also from the first chapter:

The conquest of the earth, which mostly means the taking it away from those who have a different complexion or slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look into it too much. What redeems it is the idea only. An idea at the back of it; not a sentimental pretence but an idea; and an unselfish belief in the idea--something you can set up, and bow down before, and offer a sacrifice to. . . ."


I think Conrad is referring to the mission civilicatrice, "the white man's burden". When Marlowe seeks Kurtz, I think he wants to meet a true representative of this idea. But in the end, it is all savagery.

Someone also talked about the gloom of the novel and I agree with that person in that it is "a darkness of the heart". It is the same feeling that Marlowe imagined that the Roman soldiers would find when they came to Britain. I think it is this gloom, both intriguing and scaring, that makes it such a great book to read. I think the gloom is what corrupts the bright civilisatory idea and makes it collapse into darkness. And the darkness is a place where there is no good or bad, no right or wrong, only brute force and no higher cause.
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Ophelia

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Hello Samson,

How's this for a first posting ever that goes straight to the point? :)


I'm very happy to welcome you to Booktalk.

Would you like to write an introduction (in the "Introduce Yourself" thread) and tell us a little about yourself?
Colonialism, on the other hand, is in my opinion a more historically bound term referring to the acquisition of non-European territories by the powers of Europe during the period 1492-1914, especially the Scramble for Africa in the second half of the 19th century. While an imperialst power can dominate the periphery in many ways, colonialism is associated with territorial domination. In my opinion colonialism is also the more negatively charged term.
Well, er... Yes, you just reminded me that "colonialism" is always used in the context of Europe.

I've just racked my brains... What about the Japanese?
It seems that in their case one speaks of military invasion, for example of China in the early twentieth century. They must have plundered and appropriated natural or other resources, but I don't know if they were said to be a colonial power. The word "imperialism" was used I think.

What about Moghul emperors invading India? Not colonialists.

What about the Ottoman Empire?
At the time, nobody would have said that Turkey was in Europe.
Ophelia.
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Robert Tulip

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Penelope wrote:Please Miss, Robert Tulip said:_honi soit qui mal y pense - rough translation, I don't care what you think. Shame on you Robert Tulip - You know what this means and what it does not mean. You are obviously a caring, educated, thinking and gifted person....using soundbites....stoppit.
Hi Penelope - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter says the motto Honi soit qui mal y pense is Old French for "shame upon him who thinks evil of it". How do you interpret this? I think what I said makes good sense. We in Australia now have this wicked motto emblazoned on all our colonial institutions of justice. When Kurtz invaded the Congo, in the Honi Soit spirit, his attitude was 'shame on you bleks for thinking I am evil' - ie 'I don't care what you think'. It goes well with the other half of the British coat of arms 'Dieu et mon droit' or 'God and my right arm'. Brits were eager to criticise the Nazis for putting 'Gott mit uns' on their battle helmets, when they had much the same message on their own imperial symbol. And the unicorn in chains is a symbol of the imperial conquest of nature. I admire the USA, but there is an imperial myopia whereby popular American culture views the 50 states as the whole world. This is what I meant by my comment that the core ignores the periphery.
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The Japanese and others...

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Yes I agree with you about the Japanese, I can't recall that I've read or heard somewhere that they were colonialists, but I'm not sure. They came in rather late in the "race for colonies". I think they were after natural resources and prestige just like the others though, and they sure did establish their rule with military might.

Maybe the term colonialism have something to do with the status of the area dominated. Africa or the Americas were considered uncivilized while the areas Japan conquered belonged to countries like China, home to one of the most ancient civilizations. Besides from some native kingdoms, Africa did not have any centralized states prior to the arrival of the Europeans.

The moghul and ottoman empires I would consider imperialistic but not colonialistic, based on my temporal definition of colonialism.

The real answer is perhaps that the terms are blurry.
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Penelope

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Oh my....Robert and Samson

How you have made me think!

Those Latin Mottos......like flags, and patriotism....the last refuge of the rogue.....

How can I explain my point of view to you, males, and of a different generation than I?

I read a lot of literature written by women....not because I am a feminist...I am not. I do not believe in androgeny.....as advocated by Virginia Wolf.......she wrote 'Orlando' as a man......because she said that a good writer should be androgenous. I don't believe her. Women have a different 'raison d'etre' than men. Am I terribly wrong?


I think this website is valuable because we can 'be bothered' to talk to one another.....I find your input invaluable to me......

I am relatively new to posting....and tinternet....but I get the feeling - there are no 'walls' between us of age or gender.....we can communicate...this seems valuable to me....Am I terribly wrong?

Perhaps a true use of the phrase: Honi soit qui mal y pense?
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Robert Tulip

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Penelope wrote:Oh my....Robert and Samson How you have made me think! Those Latin Mottos......like flags, and patriotism....the last refuge of the rogue.....

Hi Penelope, I think the main goal of HD is to try to open up hidden realms of the western psyche, so it is good if we can try to discuss this. I think Conrad intends Kurtz to symbolize Europe, and to shock those who have been deceived about the imperial project. And yet, Conrad is far from a Marxist revolutionary, as he also makes plain in The Secret Agent where he presents a withering critique of the revolutionary outlook. He recognizes and respects traditional values, all the more to expose the hypocrisy of those who hide behind tradition in order to conceal their crimes. Marx was right that there are dialectical relations in history, but, if I may infer from your comments on Rome, accusing western civilization of being the font of evil is problematic on two counts
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Penelope

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Quoting Robert Tulip

I suggest that Conrad sees untouched nature as in touch with God, and the rape of nature and of those who live lightly on it as the greatest moral problem of our age.

Nope!!!! I am not having that....Conrad lived in the Victorian age when life for most people in the West was not as comfortable as it is for us now. Nature is harsh and cruel for the most part.....In order to make our lives comfortable and even to preserve them whilst we are here on this planet, we have to shield ourselves from nature. I think the 'Mother Nature' picture is sentimentality......raw in tooth and claw....more like.

Nature is very beautiful......Volcanic Eruptions are very beautiful.....

What makes you suggest that Conrad sees untouched nature as in touch with God? Quote me something please?
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