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Robert Tulip 
Freshman
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 200
Gender: 
Location: Canberra
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: Re: hi penelope
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| George Ricker wrote: |
| Conrad seems most interested in telling tales of men and ships. |
I don’t agree – the implication of this comment is that Conrad is a shallow action author with tales of derring-do on the high seas. Conrad in HD is most interested in a political and psychological critique of the colonial enterprise, with the ships only a stage. The French warship lugubriously shelling the jungle is hardly an image aimed at making a life at sea seem exciting.
| ginof wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The idea of a woman on such and adventure during this period of history doesn't sound plausible |
actually, i think we are saying similar things: I don't think it was plausible, not because the women were not capable, but because they were being oppressed. if you look at who the explorers of the time actually were, they were men. Why is that? A trip took resources. Who would have given $$ or other support to a trip led by women? The 'frail constitution' argument and other fallacies would have not allowed it. Fry and Nightingale got $$ because they did things 'fitting' of a woman. IMO, to introduce the topic into such a short book would have distracted from the main themes, which are the conflicts the protagonist faces. |
With respect Ginof, I find your comment slightly strange. Calling European women of the nineteenth century “oppressed” ignores the extent to which they were beneficiaries of imperial exploitation. You are right that Victorian women did not enjoy the gender equality of more recent times, but this was partly due to a segmentation of the workforce rather than “oppression”. Conrad subtly alludes to the status of women as kept trophies by protecting Kurtz’s friend from the truth. For real “oppression” I suggest you read about how the Africans fared in HD. I know it is hypothetical, but do you really think the exclusion of women from seafaring was oppressive? The Royal Navy’s press gangs and flogging regimes certainly oppressed their victims, all male. |
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender: 
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:16 am Post subject:
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I do see what you mean, but do you remember the two women at the very beginning of book. At the offices where he went to be designated his ship? One was knitting if I remember correctly.
What were they about? Can anyone enlighten me? I feel as though I missed something there....... |
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Robert Tulip
Freshman
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 200
Gender:
Location: Canberra
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject:
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| Penelope wrote: |
| I do see what you mean, but do you remember the two women at the very beginning of book. At the offices where he went to be designated his ship? One was knitting if I remember correctly. What were they about? Can anyone enlighten me? I feel as though I missed something there....... |
Hi again Penelope, these two women and the secretary (pp15-16) remind me of the Greek Fates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae describes the three Moirae: Clotho spun the thread of life from her distaff onto her spindle; Lachesis measured the thread of life with her rod; Atropos was the cutter of the thread of life. “The compassionate secretary, who, full of desolation and sympathy, made me sign some document” while “in the outer room the two women knitted black wool feverishly.” Marlowe says “She seemed to know all about them and about me too. An eerie feeling came over me. She seemed uncanny and fateful. … Morituri te salutant.” This last is the motto of gladiators before Caesar. The cheery and foolish faces off to the Congo are compared to modern gladiators. The Fates measure their thread, and cut off the life with a contract.
It also had me thinking of Perseus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus#Overcoming_the_Gorgon explains how he went to the Graea, sisters of the Gorgons, to find the way. The Perseus archetype has been a basis for major stories, notably Peter Pan and The Matrix, and it is interesting to compare Kurtz with Medusa. |
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:00 am Post subject:
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Please miss, Robert said:-
Moirae: Clotho spun the thread of life from her distaff onto her spindle; Lachesis measured the thread of life with her rod; Atropos was the cutter of the thread of life.
Ooooh Thank you Robert - for that explanation. How fabulous!!! I am going back to read it all again.
I am so glad you are joining in this discussion.....don't go away will you!! |
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Ophelia
Beyond Awesome
Fiction Moderator
Book Discussion Leader
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
Gender:
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:42 am Post subject:
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| I agree Penelope, very interesting input from Robert! |
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject:
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Dear Robert (and Ophelia)
Robert, I hope you have seen the film from the play by Willie Russell - 'Educating Rita'.
I feel as though that is you and me in reverse....so to speak.
Being half-educated...I have missed out on the Greek Classics....
There is so much of value to know about them. But I can't just look it up on the internet....I need a tutor....help me..please.
All I can offer you (and Ophelia) in return, is my gratitude.
and honesty...I have a quaint Lancashire accent....and a desire for enlightenment.
Joke alert!!!! The difference between 'Wisdom' and 'Knowledge' - Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to include it in a fruit salad.  |
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ginof
Intern
Bronze Contributor
Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 171
Gender:
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: 'oppression'
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| Quote: |
| Calling European women of the nineteenth century “oppressed” ignores the extent to which they were beneficiaries of imperial exploitation |
Robert, i'd have to agree that my use of the word oppressed is out of sorts here. but you did capture the idea of what i meant. Given that our communication method is single mode (i.e. written) I'm going to have to choose my words more carefully. Perhaps I shouldn't write when I'm in a hurry!
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Ophelia
Beyond Awesome
Fiction Moderator
Book Discussion Leader
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 1073
Gender:
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject:
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Penelope wrote:
| Quote: |
Dear Robert (and Ophelia)
Robert, I hope you have seen the film from the play by Willie Russell - 'Educating Rita'.
I feel as though that is you and me in reverse....so to speak.
Being half-educated...I have missed out on the Greek Classics....
There is so much of value to know about them. But I can't just look it up on the internet....I need a tutor....help me..please.
All I can offer you (and Ophelia) in return, is my gratitude |
Penelope,
I confess to knowing absolutely nothing about the Classics in Greek or in Latin!
(OK, I remember that we read extracts from The Iliad and The Odyssey in class when I was 12, but that's it.)
It's a funny thing, because as far as studying literature in English I find this has been far less of an obstacle than lack of knowledge of the Bible.
So of course I greatly admire those who do know about these subjects.
I have seen "Educating Rita" though.
It was fun, and well-made. |
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Penelope
Doctorate
Silver Contributor
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 514
Gender:
Location: Cheshire, England
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject:
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Well, Ophelia - The Bible is not just a book and I think it definitely adds up to more than the sum of its parts.
It is a collection of books - and the binding together of which seems to have been somewhat arbitrary.....in view of all the conflict it has caused.
However, I have studied the Bible over many years......albeit in my own individual way. I do know quite a lot of what it says. Although I can't quote Chapter and verse. So when I know of a verse or two - I have to go and consult my old copy of 'Cruden's Concordence' - to find where it states certain thoughts. However over the years I have memorised lots of verses.....especially from the New Testament. The King James Version is in Elizabethan English and so is like poetry and so, is easier to memorise. It does help to know what it says.....if you are trying to have a discussion with a fundamentalist Christian. Wonderfully, it also helps if you are having a conversation with a Christian who speaks a different language because if they know their Bible, you can just say - e.g. John Chpter 1 -Verse 1. And they can go and look it up in their own language - that is pretty remarkable isn't it?
But it is more than that....the words, the ideas and the philosophy latch themselves into your mind.....and that can be very helpful, I have found in solving many of life's problems. Because basically, that is what the Bible is for me......people facing conflict.....and finding solace in the fact that others have been there many years before them.
Some people, in this day and age....in their fear.....treat the Bible as though it is God. It is not God....it is just a collection of books.
I also read the Upanishads (Hindu) - but they are not so widely known. Nor are they so useful in comunicating with people who speak a different language because they don't number the verses and chapters.
It is a good, though disturbing, read.....and many parts are very, very, very, boring....
Love Px |
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George Ricker
Junior
Gold Contributor
Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 315
Gender:
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: hi penelope
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| Robert Tulip wrote: |
| George Ricker wrote: |
| Conrad seems most interested in telling tales of men and ships. |
I don’t agree – the implication of this comment is that Conrad is a shallow action author with tales of derring-do on the high seas. Conrad in HD is most interested in a political and psychological critique of the colonial enterprise, with the ships only a stage. The French warship lugubriously shelling the jungle is hardly an image aimed at making a life at sea seem exciting. |
Actually, the implication of the comment is that Conrad seems most comfortable when writing about men and ships. If you want to spin that into labeling him a "shallow action author," that's your privilege, but it's your inference, not my implication.
One can write about men and ships and still deal with great moral questions and conundrums. My point was that part of the reason the women in Conrad's tale seem sketchy is that he seems much less capable when writing about them.
Your mileage may vary, and, in this case, obviously does.
George |
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