VIII- HD- Mr Kurtz.

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: VIII- HD- Mr Kurtz.

VIII- Mr Kurtz.

1- In the second part of the novella, page 69, we learn about a report Mr Kurtz wrote for "The International Society for the Suppression of Savage Customs".

a- What do you think of the choice of name for the Society?

b- What may this be alluding to?

c- What about the four words Kurtz scrawled at the bottom of his report?

2- About Mr Kurtz, the narrator writes that "The thing was to know what he belonged to, how many powers of darkness claimed him for their own"
page 67.

3- DWill wrote:

WildCityWoman · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject:

Heh! Heh! I dunno', really - but I remember how funny I found it when I'm across the name of that society - it just seemed like something somebody would conjur up as a joke.

Penelope · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject:

Well - wait a minute -

I know that in the past we used to have public hangings and burnings and furthermore, people went to watch!!!

But there were more recently barbaric practices by tribes in Africa, and still are - if twins were born - one had to be killed - that was part of a tradition which I believe the Victorian missionaries countered.

There is still female circumcision - and worse - performed on young girls from certain African tribes - and so I think I would join a society to bannish this practise if I knew of one - now.

I don't think it is wrong to interfere - so long as we remember that we have been just as barbaric in the past.

Ophelia · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject:

Penelope,

This is something I have often thought about over the years.

Once people in the west had realized how much harm our colonizing or general meddling had done in the past (missionaries doing more wrong than good, etc...), there was a strong voice saying that we should do the opposite, and leave well alone in traditional societies in Africa.

Unfortunately, this always means leaving women to their sometimes horrid fate.

We can't interfere, and it's no use preaching. Interfering as western nations would be wrong and impractical: we would never have enough United Nation soldiers to watch all cruel practises.

One thing that does work I think is NGOs offering pratctical ways of making women's lives easier (for example by bringing water into villages) and offering education for women.

Once women are no longer crushed by domestic tasks they have some time to learn and once they are educated they are better equipped to first question and then refuse tyranical customs which wictimize women and children.

DWill · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject:

The name of the society projects the European view that the native people needed to be saved, civilized. Whatever customs may have existed that were truly savage (and I don't think we can say to what extent these may have been present), it seems that the practices introduced by the Europeans wanting to get rich were savage indeed. Thus I believe that Conrad could mean the name to be bitterly ironic.

Kurtz couldn't maintain his noble intentions once he arrived in the heart of darkness. Presumably, he lost his mind entirely and repudiated all his high aims, becoming a monster. Now, whether it was that he descended to the savagery of the Africans whom he was among, or that his monstrousness came from his own being, I can't say for sure. To me, the answer Conrad gives is ambiguous.

DWill

Penelope · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:35 am Post subject:

Well, DWill, I think that Kurtz comes over as a complete megalomaniac. He went there and was intent on collecting all of that Ivory. I think the Ivory became an obsession - and he forgot it was meant to buy him a comfortable life.

He obviously enjoyed lording it over the natives......not only they, but the white men seem to have been in awe of him......big ego....believed his own publicity.......there are still folk like that about.

I was once a mere typist at ICI Engineering here in Cheshire. There was a big Soda Ash making plant opposite our building. I went to a 'Quality Training' seminar once which was meant to train one to prioritise ones tasks. I asked 'What is Soda Ash - What is it for?' No one knew. The Managers had to find out and then write a letter to me explaining what it was used for. Even then, it was all rather vague. Shocked

Penelope · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:48 am Post subject:

DWill said:

Kurtz couldn't maintain his noble intentions once he arrived in the heart of darkness.

IMO - There is nothing 'noble' about the gathering and exporting of Ivory.

However, there is plenty of evidence of 'Savage Practices' among ethnic groups today. I am not saying that we, as a culture, don't have brutal or barbaric practices. But we don't have women expected to throw themselves on their husband's funeral pire as in India. We don't mutilate our young women as still happens today. To give just two examples.

I think the idea of the 'noble savage' can be carried too far. I am all for interfering, even though I do appreciate that some of these tribes have practises which we would do well to emulate. But some should be addressed.....

Robert Tulip · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:16 am Post subject:

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:39 am Post subject:

Penelope wrote:

Penelope · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:48 am Post subject:

RoberTulip said:

So, I favour interference to improve governance and services. Barbaric practices such as slavery and terrorism can be reduced by economic development. But the example of the colonial empires of nineteenth century Africa shows the negative consequences of flimsy assumptions about superiority when these assumptions so easily degenerate into racial prejudice.

How well said Robert - you are obviously so much better informed than I and I am grateful to have read your well-worded reply.

We do seem to go in and take everything and give nothing back - often.
Sometimes we do the wrong thing for the right reason and sometimes the right thing for the wrong reason. Sometimes we (in the West) have just done the wrong thing for the basest of reasons. But although we might feel ashamed at how we have behaved in the past, I don't think it means we should turn our faces away completely from overt barbarism. In fact, I think this is the opposite of racism - not to exploit, but to treat as we ourselves would wish to be treated in such circumstances.

Thus one is labelled - Idealist!!!!! Or in my case 'Interfering old Busybody'. Smile

Penelope · Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:06 am Post subject:

DWill, Robert Tulip, Ophelia and anyone else who might be interested:

Vis a Vis - doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Some years ago I was a fairly active member of Amnesty International.

I used to write letters to Governments and Influencial people about certain political prisoners....then...one evening I went to a meeting where the guest speaker was from Argentina....(just as it happens..Argentina),

He said, not in so many words, but he said, 'Will you stop writing letters and drawing attention to these individuals....because when you do they just get 'disappeared'. (BTW - after they had disappeared - the only way they could be identified in their graves was by their trainers (shoes) - not biodegradable you see. So where do we go on ecology from there?)

However, after this happened, I went into reverse, so to speak. I sat with my head in my hands feeling mortified that I might have contributed to the deaths of the people I was aiming to help. I thought, I am not going to try any more.....I am too ignorant.

Well, I am ignorant.....but I know what is cruel and wrong....I know we may never create a better world.....it is easier for a few evil bods to destroy the endeavours of hundreds of well-meaning folk.

But I still think that the worst thing we can do is to turn our faces to the wall and feel powerless. I feel compelled to speak out when I see, meaningless, blind cruelty.....and if I never achieve anything...so what.

It is wrong.....just wrong, not to speak out. We might.....just might, make a difference.

DWill · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject:

Penelope,

When I mentioned "noble intentions," I didn't mean his intention to get rich on ivory (which I don't doubt was his & everyone's true motive), but the "cover story" of bringing enlightenment to a benighted section of the world. I enjoy Marlowe's very biting commentary on this deadly hypocrisy; he saw what was going on with clear eyes. So we can talk about what might be deficient (in the view of some) in Marlowe's portrayal of race and culture, but more than balancing this is his ringing denouncement of both the business and "humanitarian" enterprises of the Europeans.

That was a horrid scene early in the story when Marlowe visits the mining operation. By all evidence, the culture was being wiped out along with a good number of human beings. Where was there any attempt to reform savage customs? So I'm suggesting that in the context of the story, and from Marlowe's point of view, the Society for the Suppression of etc. is a mockery.

Penelope · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:47 am Post subject:

Thanks DWill -

You see, that is the trouble - I read the book and could perceive that Conrad was appalled at the treatment of the natives, and angry at feeling helpless to challenge it....we all know that feeling to some extent in the 21st century.

Also, I understood when it turned out that Kurtz had shrunken heads on the posts around his house.....that Kurtz had 'descended' to the 'savage' level. But in the back of my mind, I know that Conrad is more subtle than this......I am wondering what I am missing and why. Now that is a good thing, I know, except that I am not sure where to look for the answers.

I perish the thought of using those 'students' books which 'tell' you which questions to ask and what the 'correct' answer is in order to pass an examination. I want to ask my own questions - and find my own answers - well I know there is rarely a correct answer - perhaps I should say, find my own replies.

I need your input you guys.......

Robert Tulip · Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:39 am Post subject:

George Ricker · Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:03 am Post subject:

Kurtz sits at the heart of the darkness in Heart of Darkness. I think Robert is correct that his descent epitomizes the true nature of the colonial enterprise laid bare, stipped of all the euphemisms and pretensions of noble purpose.

But is what happens to Kurtz a descent or an actualization? Do we really think Kurtz lost himself in Africa? Isn't it really the case that there, removed from all restraints, he was free to act in accordance with his own basic nature?

I think that's the real darkness in the story. I also think that's the horror he was forced to confront at the end, the horror of his own self-deception. With his own hands Kurtz had shredded the mask with which he had concealed his own true nature from himself.

So maybe his last "the horror…the horror" was not so much a reaction to what he had seen, or done, or become but was the recognition of what he always had been.

And since Kurtz's character, returning to Robert's point, is emblematic of the colonial enterprise as a whole, his revelation strips away all pretense.

It's not that the colonial effort began with noble intentions and gradually lost its way through the greed and corruption of its agents, but that the enterprise was rotten at its very core from the outset.

The starkness of that message may also explain why Conrad chose to wrap Marlow's narrative in a narrative. It has the effect of softening the story, making it less direct. Perhaps Conrad felt that, like Kurtz's intended, the audience for whom he was writing could not face the plain truth.

One commentator I read wrote that Conrad fretted he had made Kurtz "too symbolic." I think there was reason to fret, but I don't see how he could have done things differently unless he had chosen to write a much longer work. As it is, he wrote an extended short story that has the thematic richness of a novel.

George


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