You are browsing the forum as a guest. Please log in or register to access additional features.
Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ABOUT BOOKS VIDEOS TRANSCRIPTS LINKS BLOGS DONATE CONTACT  

     Log in   Register 


BookTalk.org News
• Check out the new VIDEOS page. The link is in the top green navigation bar.

Links & Resources

Community Rules & Tips
For Authors & Publishers
Link to our old forum
Books we've ordered
Book Suggestions
Donations to BookTalk.org
BookTalk Forum Statistics
Games 170 FREE Games


Featured Videos
Henry David Thoreau
& Walden Pond


Henry David Thoreau and Walden Pond

Richard Dawkins
The God Delusion


Richard Dawkins - What if you're wrong?

More Videos

Show us where you live!
BookTalk.org Member Map

Featured Member Blogs

Theomanic's blog
Lawrenceindestin's blog
Penelope's blog
Frank 013's blog
President Camacho's blog

- All Member Blogs
- Blog News


Chat Room

Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room
Enter Chat Room

Amazon Kindle
Amazon Kindle Wireless Reading Device

Donate & Support BookTalk.org

Please support our free community by making a credit card donation through our secure PayPal account. We appreciate and depend on the generosity of our members. Thank you!

See who supports us


Author Interviews

•Noam Chomsky
   Interventions
• Eugenie C. Scott
   Evolution vs. Creationism
• A.C. Grayling
   What is Good?
• Lee Harris
   Civilization and Its Enemies
• Ann Druyan
   Pale Blue Dot
• Michael Shermer
   How We Believe
• Matt Ridley
   The Red Queen
• Stephen Pinker
   The Blank Slate
• Massimo Pigliucci
   Rationally Speaking
• Richard Dawkins
   Unweaving the Rainbow
• Howard Bloom
   Global Brain
• Howard Bloom
   The Lucifer Principle




Display Pagerank


Books That Shook the World


 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Additional Non-Fiction Book Discussions  BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Additional Non-Fiction Book Discussions
Author Message
bradams bradams has been starred
I can enter The Chamber





Joined: 03 Jan 2008

Posts: 61
Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:39 am    Post subject: Books That Shook the World Reply with quote
Quote:
Books that shook the world

Can ideas change the world? The famous words of Karl Marx’s eleventh thesis on Feuerbach, inscribed on his gravestone in Highgate cemetery, seem to suggest not. ‘The philosophers,’ Marx wrote, ‘have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.’ This ringing declaration has often been taken to mean that ideas are futile. But Marx can’t have meant anything quite as crude as that – for one thing, he presumably intended his words to have an effect on whoever read them. He certainly thought the world would change only through active revolutionary struggle, but the revolution nevertheless had to be guided by ideas. It’s ideas that change the minds of the people whose actions then change the world.

Something like this appears to be the thinking behind a new series from Atlantic Books. Its ‘Books that Shook the World’ are short ‘biographies’ of texts that can lay claim to world-historical significance, and among the first batch to be published are Simon Blackburn on Plato’s ‘Republic’, Christopher Hitchens on Thomas Paine’s ‘Rights of Man’ and Francis Wheen on the magnum opus of Marx himself.

Like any book about Marx, Wheen’s splendid little volume on ‘Das Kapital’ has to meet an obvious and rather substantial challenge: that what appears in Marx’s work as a kind of prophecy – about the emergence of an organised working class who would be the ‘gravediggers’ of the system that produced them; about a future material abundance that would guarantee equality – has not been confirmed by history but destroyed by it.

Wheen meets this challenge in two, not necessarily compatible, ways. On the one hand, he acknowledges Marx’s errors and unfulfilled prophecies, but insists that these are nonetheless ‘eclipsed and transcended’ by his devastatingly accurate description of the nature of capitalism. On the other hand, Wheen insists that the portrayal of Marx as a ‘mechanical determinist’ is in any case a caricature, and that Marx believed human beings to be capable of making their own history (albeit in circumstances not of their choosing).

Of course, if it’s impossible to predict equality on the basis of iron-clad historical laws, then one has to argue for it, and so advocacy replaces prophecy. In Wheen’s reading, ‘Das Kapital’ is a kind of source-book for socialist argument; not a premonition, therefore, but rather the description of a system that deforms and crushes the human spirit. And as long as that system endures, so will Marx’s masterpiece.

‘Das Kapital’, Wheen argues, is an attempt to map the terra incognita of an emergent industrial capitalism. And this exploratory character accounts for what the critic Edmund Wilson described as the ‘brain-racking subtleties’ of Marx’s prose. In fact, Wheen has learned from Wilson not to try to look past Marx’s extraordinary style, but instead to see in its ‘Dickensian’ textures an attempt to embody the way in which, under capitalism, ‘all that is solid melts into air’. He brilliantly evokes the atmosphere of Victorian Gothic that pervades the pages of ‘Das Kapital’, as Marx attempts to disclose the injustice and exploitation behind the phantom-like objectivity’ of commodification.

The idea that genuine knowledge requires us to penetrate the veils of illusion is not Marx’s own, of course. It goes back two thousand years to Plato. In his book on the ‘Republic’, Simon Blackburn sets himself the task of disentangling that idea from the thickets of Platonic metaphysics.

Like Wheen, Blackburn thinks his subject has been ‘horribly betrayed’ by his followers. He’s particularly hard on the Christianised version of Platonism that took hold in the fourth and fifth centuries. There’s nothing to be said for the idea of illumination through transcendental ascent and we do Plato no favours, Blackburn thinks, by trying to save it. But in that case, one might ask how we can make any sense of the famous Myth of the Cave, which seems to identify reality with the unchanging and the eternal?

Easy, says Blackburn. Once you’ve cleared away the metaphysics, what remains is a quite straightforward ‘plea’ for the scientific and mathematical understanding of reality. The threatening-sounding eternal ‘forms’ are in fact unchanging structures of understanding which allow us to discern in the world properties and relations susceptible to being ordered in quantitative terms.

Christopher Hitchens has a much easier job than either Blackburn or Wheen, for Thomas Paine’s language of the ‘rights of man’ remains and ‘will always be part of the arsenal on which we shall need to depend’. Consequently, he doesn’t devote much space to substantive analysis of Paine’s ideas, preferring instead to establish the context in which the book was written.

Hitchens is particularly interested in Paine’s relationship with Edmund Burke, to whom his tract was ostensibly addressed, and in the friendships that didn’t survive the later attacks on religion launched by Paine in ‘The Age of Reason’. And he is too intelligent not to recognise that many readers will find it hard to avoid thinking at the same time of the psychodrama of Hitchens’ own recent political trajectory, with its broken friendships and abandoned alliances. Who said ideas don’t matter?

‘Plato’s Republic: A Biography’ by Simon Blackburn; ‘Paine’s Rights of Man: A Biography’ by Christopher Hitchens; and ‘Marx’s Das Kapital: A Biography’ by Francis Wheen are published by Atlantic Books at £9.99 each. Others in the first series are Bruce ‘The Qur’an: A Biography’ by Bruce Lawrence and ‘Darwin’s Origin of Species: A Biography’ by Janet Browne.

Johnathan Derbyshire, Fri Jul 14 2006
Back to top
bradams bradams has been starred
I can enter The Chamber





Joined: 03 Jan 2008

Posts: 61
Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Has anybody read any of these biographies? Has anyone read any of the actual "Books that shook the world"?

I've read P.J. O'Rourke's biography of Wealth of Nations and just borrowed Francis Wheen's biography of Das Kapital. I was unimpressed by O'Rourke although I am impressed by Adam Smith.

I enjoy Simon Blackburn's writing so I'll check that out, ditto for Christopher Hitchens.

As for the actual world-shakers I've only read Plato's Republic. I'm hoping to move onto Marx sometime soon.
Back to top
irishrosem irishrosem has been starred
Doctorate





Joined: 19 Oct 2006

Posts: 536
Gender: Female

us.gif



PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Of the books listed here, I’ve only read The Rights of Man. Well, I read The Republic in the sense that I read every word in the book. But I never comprehended the bulk of it to the point that I consider it a book under my belt. Parts of it I have a handle on, but not much of it. Now the question is, do we agree that they are the books that should be targeted as “Books that Shook the World”?
Back to top
bradams bradams has been starred
I can enter The Chamber





Joined: 03 Jan 2008

Posts: 61
Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think all the books on the list did shake the world. I wouldn't say they're the only books that shook the world but they certainly did in my opinion.
Back to top
Dissident Heart Dissident Heart has been starred
Embodiment of Reason
Bronze Contributor
Bronze Contributor

Avatar



Joined: 29 Aug 2003

Posts: 1414
Gender: Male



PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've read Francis Wheen's Karl Marx: A Life and fell in love with the art of biography, and grew very fond of the cantakerous, obnoxious, pugnatious, brilliant and frightfully endearing subject of his book, Herr Marx. Wheen provides accessable summaries of Marx's corpus in this biography (including the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital) and tracks a superhuman correspondence of letters, newspaper articles, meeting minutes...and conversations and anecdotes that portray a human, and humane, Marx as something fundamentally different from the terrible bogeyman I was raised to despise.
Back to top
Robert Tulip Robert Tulip has been starred
Freshman





Joined: 04 Oct 2005

Posts: 206
Gender: Male
Location: Canberra
as.gif



PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi B. & thank you for this interesting reference. I know Plato quite well, and was just thinking the other day, after seeing the Bradbury thread here, about how the image of the fully screenwalled television room from Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451 echoes the story of Plato’s cave, with the ascent from illusion and ignorance through belief to knowledge. So our television matrix culture today cocoons us in illusion, and we have difficulty turning to knowledge of the truth. Plato amplifies this image with the divided line, demarcating epistemology into categories of false belief, true belief, knowledge of reality and knowledge of the good. Blackburn seems to leave out the idea of the good. The review says
Quote:
Blackburn thinks [Plato] has been ‘horribly betrayed’ by his followers. He’s particularly hard on the Christianised version of Platonism that took hold in the fourth and fifth centuries. There’s nothing to be said for the idea of illumination through transcendental ascent and we do Plato no favours, Blackburn thinks, by trying to save it. But in that case, one might ask how we can make any sense of the famous Myth of the Cave, which seems to identify reality with the unchanging and the eternal? Easy, says Blackburn. Once you’ve cleared away the metaphysics, what remains is a quite straightforward ‘plea’ for the scientific and mathematical understanding of reality. The threatening-sounding eternal ‘forms’ are in fact unchanging structures of understanding which allow us to discern in the world properties and relations susceptible to being ordered in quantitative terms.”

I have to disagree with Blackburn’s rejection of illumination through ascent. In rejecting the flat earth cosmology holus bolus more care is needed in assessing Plato’s ideas on this topic. For example, I’ve just read a comment from Joseph Campbell in his 1971 essay ‘Envoy: No More Horizons’:
Quote:
“Plato in the Timaeus (90cd) declares that ‘… the motions that are akin to the divine principle within us are the thoughts and revolutions of the universe’.”
This is a hard thought for moderns to comprehend, but it remains true, and illustrates how the concept of ascent to a universal knowledge can remain valid. Blackburn speaks of Plato’s ideas as quantitative, but this is an empiricist distortion, missing the rational beauty and quality of the moral ideas.
Quote:
“Once you’ve cleared away the metaphysics”
in Blackburn’s no-nonsense way, where are truth, justice, beauty and love?
Back to top
Randy Kadish
Eligible to vote!





Joined: 11 Oct 2007

Posts: 22
Gender: Male



PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's my list of books that shook the world:

The New Testament

Copernicus: On the Revolution of Heavenly Spheres

Galileo : Dialogues on the Two Chief Systems of the World

Newton: The Principia

Darwin: Origin of Species

Freud: The Interpretation of Dreams

Einstein: The Meaning of Relativity
Back to top
bradams bradams has been starred
I can enter The Chamber





Joined: 03 Jan 2008

Posts: 61
Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've just finished reading Wheen's biography of Das Kapital and found it extremely engaging. I'm even motivated to tackle the book itself, which has previously seemed intimidating and foreboding simply by virtue of its size and reputation.
Back to top
bradams bradams has been starred
I can enter The Chamber





Joined: 03 Jan 2008

Posts: 61
Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I have to admit that Das Kapital has again defeated me. One look at the daunting 900+ pages (and that's just volume 1!) was enough to scare me away. I think if somebody dropped all three volumes in a hardcover edition it would truly be a book that shook the world!

I've sought out David McLellan's Marx: Selected Writings which is commonly recommended as the best starting point for reading Marx in books about Marx. While I'm waiting for it to be delivered I've taken Dissident Heart's advice and borrowed Francis Wheen's biography of Marx. I also picked up a biography of former Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating, What's Left?by Nick Cohen, and How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World by Francis Wheen. I've really taken to Wheen's writing style.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Additional Non-Fiction Book Discussions  
Page 1 of 1


 
Recent Topics
» Contest #2: "On The Importance of Reading"
by Chris OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:34 pm

» Reading for pleasure! What are you reading now?
by hegel1066 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:04 pm

» Ways To Annoy People
by Penelope on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:51 pm

» No Country- IV- The style.
by WildCityWoman on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:49 pm

» Favorite Fiction Novels
by hegel1066 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:44 pm

» i really love the manner in which an author writes....
by bibliophile_18 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:20 am

» new and inexperienced
by tarav on Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:03 am

» No Country- III- The plot.
by WildCityWoman on Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:41 am

» Author willing to chat with readers, if you want.
by madinchaos on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:44 am

» Moron Alert: California Man Sees Virgin Mary In Wound
by Constance963 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:30 am




BookTalk.org Suggests


Are You Famous? Touring America with Alaska's Fiddling Poet by Ken Waldman

Sudden Death by Michael Balkind

The Mental Environment by Bob Gebelein

Home Girl by Judith Matloff

The 19th Wife by David Ebershoff

Won't Get Fooled Again by Joseph H. Boyett


The Art of Hanging by W. Town Andrews, Jr.


Additional Book Suggestions


Poll
Have you ever parked in a handicapped spot?

Yes [4]
No [8]

You must login to vote


BookTalk.org is a book discussion group, also known as a reading group or book club. We read and talk about fiction books and non-fiction books, as a group. Live author chats where book group members can interact with and interview authors are common. We often give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys booktalk.  Booktalk is a free online reading group that features quality book reviews, resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. Fiction chat and non-fiction chat, book forum, literature forum, or reading forum...call us what you will. Register a free book club account today Suggest either fiction or nonfiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to plug their books or ask for an author chat or interview.

MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSLINKSBLOGSFAQDONATECONTACT

BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
The Best American Short Stories 2007 edited by Stephen King • 50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. Harrison • The Great Indian Novel by Shashi Tharoor • Walden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David Thoreau • Exile and the Kingdom by Albert Camus • Our Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de Waal • Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil Shubin • No Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthy • The Age of American Unreason by Susan Jacoby • Ten Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David Haberman • Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad • The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen Pinker • A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini • The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip Zimbardo • Responsibility and Judgment by Hannah Arendt • Interventions by Noam Chomsky • Godless in America by George A. Ricker • Religious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. Haiman • Deep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibben • The God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListBook OrdersMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism Books

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2008. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group