• In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 709 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 1:09 am

Ch. 1 - Words and Worlds

#43: Jan. - Mar. 2008 (Non-Fiction)
User avatar
Q
Getting Comfortable
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:44 pm
16
Location: Castle Aaaargh!

Tracking Pinker - without the book:

Unread post

I've just joined BOOKTALK (and wish I'd found y'all before) and I'm intrigued by Pinkers work. Any comments i make will have to be from what I can gather from these posts here: I'm currently in Argentina which has an amazing Postal System dedicated to delaying (and often losing) mail; deliveries from Amazon.com and such can take two months or more and carry $20 to $30 postage charges - and of course, there are no English language libraries. Thats the bad news.

The good news is that in this case I have the opportunity to see two different languages at work (I've written for publication in both). I find it useful to test statements on linguistics in each - a sort of 'double blind' test. Anything I stumble across I'll post in this forum: Further along in the book (and who knows, my own copy might arrive sometime) I suspect, when there will be more to work on.

:) Q
User avatar
Loricat
Laughs at Einstein
Posts: 433
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:00 am
19

Unread post

bradams wrote:
I just want to ask one question about the Preface, which Dissident Heart has already quoted. If language is a window into human nature, then is each different language a window into a different human nature or are they all different windows into the same human nature?
....
It will be interesting to see how he reconciles the fact that some thoughts are inexpressible in some languages with the thesis that there is an underlying human nature and that language is a window into the mind.
I am not a proponent of the Whorf-Sapir hypothesis (the wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis), at least not the strong version, that the language one speaks creates your world view. I'm more of the "it orders your world view" camp. So, in answer to your first question, bradams, for me, Language is a lot of windows onto the same human nature.

I also believe that all thoughts are expressible in all human languages. I think the confusion comes when people start paying attention to the lexical items that are unique to a given language, and confuse a word (or short phrase) with the thought. For example, Brazilian Portuguese has some beautiful words I learned years ago when I lived there, words that English doesn't have: "madrugada" which is the wee hours of the morning, when you haven't been to bed yet, and "saudades" a romantic, nostalgic longing. We don't have one lexical item that corresponds to these words, but the ideas are expressible in English, with some circumlocution.

Anyway...I, too, am looking forward to this book. Pinker is an engaging writer, and the topic is near'n'dear to my heart.
"All Beings are the Owners of their Deeds, the Heirs to their Deeds."
JulianTheApostate
Masters
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am
18
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Tracking Pinker - without the book:

Unread post

Q wrote:I've just joined BOOKTALK (and wish I'd found y'all before) and I'm intrigued by Pinkers work.
Welcome! Have you read anything of Pinker's?
User avatar
Mr. P

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
Has Plan to Save Books During Fire
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:16 am
19
Location: NJ
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 137 times
Gender:
United States of America

Unread post

Loricat wrote:
bradams wrote:
I just want to ask one question about the Preface, which Dissident Heart has already quoted. If language is a window into human nature, then is each different language a window into a different human nature or are they all different windows into the same human nature?
I am not a proponent of the Whorf-Sapir hypothesis (the wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis), at least not the strong version, that the language one speaks creates your world view. I'm more of the "it orders your world view" camp. So, in answer to your first question, bradams, for me, Language is a lot of windows onto the same human nature.
From what I get so far, Pinker seems to imply that different languages are indeed unique in how the people who speak the language comprehend their world. He is specifically talking about the English language throughout this book...not communication in general. I am with Loricat though in that I feel it 'orders' and not 'creates' the world view. (Is it "language orders the world view" or the "worldview is ordered by the language" LOL)

I am fascinated by the first 70 pages. I find the talk of verb constructions and the implications behind how we form our words and thoughts very interesting.

I have heard/read talk regarding the question of whether words shape our thoughts or vice versa. I feel, after reading this first section, that it is obviously our thought patterns & structures and the brains specific way of conceptualizing the external world that shapes the words and constructions we use.

Mr. P.
When you refuse to learn, you become a disease.
User avatar
George Ricker

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
Junior
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:21 am
17
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Unread post

Mr. P.: I have heard/read talk regarding the question of whether words shape our thoughts or vice versa. I feel, after reading this first section, that it is obviously our thought patterns & structures and the brains specific way of conceptualizing the external world that shapes the words and constructions we use.

I'm about two-thirds of the way through the book and don't want to comment too much until I've finished.

It seems clear that our brains have evolved to see the world from certain perspectives and those perspectives are critical in the development of human languages. That said, can we honestly conceive of such a thing as a non-verbal thought? Certainly, there are emotions and impulses and all the rest, but those aren't thoughts, at least not as I understand the term.

And if we must have words to articulate thoughts, is it not also the case that the thoughts we articulate will be influenced by the words we use? In other words, while the mental architecture we have evolved dictates the form language development takes, it seems to me that between thoughts and expressions there is a considerable feedback loop, a kind of synergy that suggests neither one can be regarded solely as the creator of the other.

George
George Ricker

"Nothing about atheism prevents me from thinking about any idea. It is the very epitome of freethought. Atheism imposes no dogma and seeks no power over others."

mere atheism: no gods
User avatar
Dissident Heart

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
I dumpster dive for books!
Posts: 1790
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:01 am
20
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Unread post

Do we have thoughts without words? Is thinking a matter of talking to oneself? Pinker, I think, is describing the world of thought as largely a matter of speaking. The stuff of thought is language in motion. And the motion of language follows, it seems, rules of transmission: verbs require proper utilization...they simply wont fit where they don't belong. Even children know this! Actually, it's because children know this (without being able to have learned it) that we can even talk about it.

Interestingly, the key to this linguistic fact is found entirely in the ear: it is an auditory discovery delivered by way of speaking kidlets. Adult linguists then capture these sounds as scripted alphabet and position them onto paper, or as pixels on a screen.

We might say we are hardwired for language: capturing the stuff of thought with the metaphor of computation and machinery. In this case, the choice of metaphor does form the world we describe.
User avatar
Q
Getting Comfortable
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:44 pm
16
Location: Castle Aaaargh!

Re: Tracking Pinker - without the book:

Unread post

JulianTheApostate wrote:
Q wrote:I've just joined BOOKTALK (and wish I'd found y'all before) and I'm intrigued by Pinkers work.
Welcome! Have you read anything of Pinker's?
Thank you for the welcome. My only contact with Pinker's work has been through some of his video conferences and stuff I've picked up from the 'net - it's likely to remain so as here in Argentina book orders carry about two months delay and $20 or $30 US worth of postage. His presentations are done with flair and style and the little I've seen of his writing also - however I'm skeptical about his approach: If it is grounded on Noam Chomsky (not one of my favourites) and E O Wilson, I think I'll just watch the debate here for now, and make totally inappropriate comments from time to time. I am hoping he has something new to dish up though.

:) Q
Post Reply

Return to “The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature - by Stephen Pinker”