Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS GAMES DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:13 am


Upcoming Chats 
Casual Chat every Sunday 11:00 am Eastern • Casual Chat every Thursday at 9:00 pm Eastern




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 
Orwell vs Huxley 
Author Message
Years of membershipYears of membership
I can enter The Chamber


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Thanks
Post Orwell vs Huxley
I think it was Meesh's post regarding Fahrenheit 451 that put me in mind of something that Neil Postman wrote, even though he does not mention Bradbury.

Quote:
We were keeping our eyes on 1984. when the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, w at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.

But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another - slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. as Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetitive for distractions." In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate would ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love would ruin us.

This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.


I've quoted the entire forward to Amusing Ourselves to Death because I feel that quoting only parts of it would reduce its impact. What I'm proposing here is not a discussion of Postman's book, but a discussion of the idea it encapsulates, particularly in regard to books ("What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one"), but also in regard to the other ideas.

My own thought is that if Huxley was right (and I think he was), then Orwell's prophetic vision may also come to pass because of that. I believe that what Huxley envisaged has largely come to pass, if not literally then at least in spirit, for a large proportion of the western world. For example, I know a university graduate who can quote Harry Potter readily, but when told of Benazir Bhutto's assassination responded by asking "Who's he?" I think that because the population has become so passive and entertainment oriented it has made possible a gradual curtailing of our civil liberties in a much more Orwellian fashion. After all, Big Brother is nothing more than a tv show to most people in my country, and they remain ignorant of Owell's version.

What does anyone else think on the issue?


Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:58 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Stupendously Brilliant


Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 717
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Thanks
Post 
This reminded me of an anecdote I once heard (was it in Chomsky's Interventions?) about a group of Russian journalists who traveled to the US during the Cold War. They wondered how it was that the American free press were all towed the government line on most matters when the Soviets had to use coercive methods to arrive at a similar destination.


Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:20 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membership
I can enter The Chamber


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Thanks
Post 
That does sound like Chomsky. The whole idea of Manufacturing Consent.

I wonder whether manufacturing consent is more Orwellian than Huxleyan in the sense that it's institutional. Maybe it's both!

In Australia our sports stars get more news coverage for their off-field antics than more serious news items. We had a footballer, Ben Cousins, who's been all over the papers for his abuse of drugs and a cricketer, Shane Warne, who gets headlines for his sexual exploits - front page news and page after page of coverage. In comparison the passing away of one of our great politicians, Don Chipp who founded Australia's third force in politics the Australian Democrats, didn't even merit a whole page late last year.

Those examples sound more along the Huxleyan lines than the Orwellian, but what I've read of Chomsky about the maufacture of consent generally sounds Orwellian.


Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:50 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


Recent Blogging 

Great Year as Demiurge

The ancient philosopher Plato held that God is revealed locally through a Demiurge, an artisan-like figure responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe.… more

Posted: 1 day ago by robert tulip

Welcome.

Have you ever considered one day sitting down and tracing your family history? Don't get me wrong it takes more than one day but you get my drift I hope.  Today with the… mor e

Posted: 4 days ago by star burst

I've got a new tag

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society - Krishnamurti

Posted: 7 days ago by Penelope

The Origins of Atomic Theory and our Modern View of Particle Physics

By Jim Watters

PowerPoint presentation in PDF format download here (7.69 MB).

Posted: 9 days ago by jim watters

New poll widget available for your blog

You'll now notice a brand new widget available for your personal blog called the "Poll Widget." You can add polls to your sidebar simply by dragging and dropping the… more

Posted: 11 days ago by Chris OConnor

OK - Getting Serious!

A tribute to our Canadian friends from an English Woman:_

An Australian Definition of a Canadian   In case anyone asks you who a Canadian is . . .     … more

Posted: 16 days ago by Penelope

How to evaluate the following basic calculus iterated integral

How to evaluate the following basic calculus iterated integral:

Posted: 17 days ago by jim watters

A lovely Wedding

Last weekend we went to the wedding of the daughter of our old friends.  We can remember her being born:-

 

Posted: 17 days ago by Penelope

Fresh from the garden

So our garden is beginning to produce an abundance of tomatoes zucchini and even some green peppers. The cantaloupes are getting bigger and one is starting to turn beige. I don… more

Posted: 17 days ago by froglipz

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

Click "edit" to get into your dashboard where you can select a theme a… mor e

Posted: 18 days ago by star burst

Some things to know about how to order pizza or fast food

In America we spend far more of our time ordering food than making it it seems, and yet, when it comes to either phone ordering OR counter ordering we don't seem to have a clu… more

Posted: 18 days ago by froglipz

Progress in Evolution

From http://www.bautforum.com/showt hread.php/106667-Evolution-cla rifications?p=1777341#post1777 341 Part of the debate here turns on the question of whether evolution displays prog… more

Posted: 19 days ago by robert tulip

University and Lady Gaga

Oh, University. Much like everything else in my life, if I don't have it, I want it. I'm currently waiting to get back to university and just sitting here in boring Orang… more

Posted: 19 days ago by genocide

Churrasco

Everyone likes a good steak but many don't know about Churrasco, a type of cooked steak from Argentina.

This is definitely my favorite steak. I know a lot of people tha… more

Posted: 19 days ago by president camacho

Death Alley By Jeff Smith

The Butterfield Stage line between Warner’s Ranch and Oak Grove was a narrow trail, dusty in summer, soggy in winter, rutted the year round. On its weekly treks, the stage always… more

Posted: 19 days ago by star burst

Caterpillars

I went out into my garden today to find that something had eaten all of my parsley. It turns out I have about 50 Black Swallowtail caterpillars munching away at my garden.

I was… more

Posted: 20 days ago by president camacho

History

Since starting with Herodotus, I've read The Will of Zeus by Stringfellow Barr, as well as Thucydides' The Peloponnesian War. I've also read the Rise and Fall of Ath… more

Posted: 20 days ago by president camacho

Rigor Mortis and other Post Mortem Changes

Once the heart stops beating, blood collects in the most dependent parts of the body (livor mortis), the body stiffens (rigor mortis), and the body begins to cool (alg… more

Posted: 20 days ago by star burst

The Cryptid Zoo: Werewolves in Cryptozoology

In folklore, werewolves are people who sometimes shapeshift into wolves. Because werewolves are usually thought to be part of the supernatural, they are seldom investigated by pe… more

Posted: 20 days ago by star burst

George Washington Tomb

George Washington Tomb

George and Martha Washington are buried on the grounds of Mount Vernon in a gated tomb, which can be seen by visitors.

http://www.visitingdc.c&hel lip; more

Posted: 22 days ago by star burst



BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Casual Chats

Every Thursday
9:00 pm Eastern

Every Sunday
11:00 am Eastern



Booktalk.org Staff 
Administrators
Chris OConnor
MidnightCoder
Moderators
Frank 013
Interbane
Saffron
Suzanne

BookTalk.org Needs Support 
We need your support! Please consider making a donation today. See who supports us.
Make a donation
RECENT DONATIONS:
Thanks Stahrwe!
• stahrwe - $50 August
• stahrwe - $50 July
• stahrwe - $50 May


Kindle Wireless Reading Device

If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.

F.A.C.T.S. 
FACTS: Freethought - Atheism - Critical Thinking - Science


Show us where you live! 
BookTalk.org Member Map




BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
The Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiPredictably Irrational, Revised and Expanded Edition: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions by Dan ArielyALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism - by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors: Short Fictions and Illusions by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money: Reckless Finance, Failed Politics, and the Global Crisis of American Capitalism by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power: The End of American ExceptionalismLolitaOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book SelectionsAdvertise on BookTalk.org

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2010. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank