Abu Ghraib

JulianTheApostate · Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: Abu Ghraib

Any comments about the Abu Ghraib chapters? Has anyone gotten that far in the book?

Zimbardo made some startling claims regarding Chip Frederick, an Abu Ghraib guard whose defense he assisted. According to Zimbardo, Frederick was a balanced and well-regarded correctional officer before he went to Iraq. The working environment in Abu Ghraib drove him to take part in the abuse of prisoners. Higher-level officers and institutional factors bear much of the responsibility for Frederick's actions, though that doesn't absolve Frederick of blame.

That's perspective differs significantly from the "bad apples" line that appeared frequently in the mainstream media. Instead, Abu Ghraib supports Zimbardo's contention that emotionally healthy people can do horrible things under certain circumstances.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Abu Ghraib

jales4 · Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:57 am Post subject:

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:

Another question I kept asking myself upon reading this chapter is: :If these systemic forces propelled Fredrick into his evil, why did it not propel all the guards into the same evil. There was the whistle blower. Maybe Fredrick has some dispositional factors that allowed him to become evil. Yes, maybe the situaltion and systemic forces acted as a catalyst, but still...only certain people succumbed to this evil behavior.

What makes us good/moral anyway? Is it just that we act good/moral in a certain barrel, or is it the ability of some to act good/moral in any barrel?

If you factor out the situations, a person is who he/she is and will be prone to act in a certain way regardless. Each situation is a special circumstance, I will agree with that. This research is not so profound to me as it seems to be to others...it seems pretty basic that we act according to situations. There is no research or existence at all outside of situations anyway! Maybe that is why I do not see Zimbardo's study and explanations as anything special.

I also did not like his framing of the latter half of the chapter as a Trial...there was no fair presentation of the other side...so his asking us for a verdict is kinda an empty tactic.

Mr. P.

Ophelia · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:53 am Post subject:

The amount of information and the quality of the analysis given in chapter 14 are amazing. Abu Ghraib is one of those things I never expected to see analyzed in depth.
What Zimbardo writes about pornographic sites on the net and other "trophy pictures" taken before in other war situations gives a very useful perspective.

To add to all this horror, I found that the whistleblower, Joe Darby, was given six-month round the clock military protection on his return to the States and could not return to his hometown because his life was at risk from his irate patriotic neighbours. I had no idea, I can't watch CBS here and somehow I never heard.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/07/60minutes/main2238188_page4. shtml

One thing that was mentioned regularly in France at the time was surprise and admiration for the fact that the whistleblower's information was actually investigated by the military and went up to the top.
In another case of similar abuse of prisoners in Iraq mentioned in chapter 14, military commanders found incriminating photos in soldiers' bags and simply destroyed them. This is what I, and for example two non-commissioned officers I know in the Air Force, would expect the military to do in France, and that's in peace time.

JulianTheApostate · Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject:


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