Why was I never so lucky?

Chris OConnor · Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:01 am Post subject: Why was I never so lucky?

High school teacher accused of sex with student
Wednesday, October 24, 2007

TAMPA (Bay News 9) -- A 33-year-old Tampa high school teacher has been arrested for allegedly having sex with a student.

Christina Butler, a ninth grade teacher at Middleton High, was arrested Tuesday after she admitted to having sex with an underage student, Tampa police officers said.

Butler, who teaches special education, told officers she had sex with the 15-year-old boy twice at her home.

If she had sex with a child that is mentally handicapped then I do have a problem with what she did. But if this was a mutually consensual romp in the way then she deserve a round of applause for helping this young buy learn the ropes from a more experienced teacher.

Tampa police officers found out about the affair after a traffic stop involving several teenage boys. Officers determined during the stop that the car, a Jeep Cherokee, belonged to a Middleton High School teacher. The driver told police he had a relationship with the vehicle's owner and she was called to the scene.

Once there, she was interviewed by police. After initially saying her relationship with the student was platonic, she admitted to having sex with the teenager, officials said.

Butler, who was released from jail on a $7,500 bond, has been charged with felony lewd and lascivious battery. This is her first year teaching in Hillsborough County.

Ophelia

Hi Chris,

This reminds me of the shock I felt about a related and much more tragic subject when the story of a lawsuit brought by the former sex victims of priests belonging to the Church of California.

I then did some research and found out that the number of sexual offenses committed by Catholic priests on underage persons was the same as...TEACHERS!
Not being a Catholic, I was ready to believe the figures about Catholic priests (and I really do think there is a problem), but reading about the same accusations against a group I have belonged to for over 20 years to was a different story.
Of course very little information is available, but what I did find out was that in the case of teachers a substantial number of cases were like the one in the article you have posted, with the ( American!) parents of a say 16 year old boy suing a female teacher for behaviour that had taken place outside the school building. This is far from ideal, but I can live with this knowledge. In fact (being probably biased in favour of women and teachers), I even feel sorry for these women for being so stupid (or...desperate? or...predatory?).

jales4 · Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject:

Hi Chris

Ophelia · Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject:

Hi Jales4,

I assume Chris was writing tongue in cheek when giving the traditional male answer to this issue.

Before I write more, how would you feel if your 15-year-old son had had consensual sex with

-a a female teacher

b- any other female adult ?

Would you feel like suing the adult, as the laws entitles you to do?

jales4 · Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject:

Hi Evelyne,

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:54 am Post subject:

I understand your point. I think the law should stay as it is to protect immature minors of both sexes, and we must just pray that parents have the wisdom to know when and when not to press charges.

Also I know from experience that young people can be very clever and lie convincingly. One of my pupils once sent an anonymous letter to the Headmaster, complaining about my skills as a teacher and those of one of my colleagues. I would have expected that the letter be dismissed by the powers that be, as we didn't know who had written it and each of my students denied having written it, but I still had to answer the accusations.
At the same time, I heard from a secretary that every time the Head or one of his deputies received an anonymous letter about themselves, the letter went where they thought it deserved to go-- straight to the trash can.

There is a very interesting example of this - a 15-year-old boy, Kevin, wrongly accusing his drama teacher of improper behaviour, meaning sexual advances-- in the novel "We need to talk about Kevin" by Lionel Shrivel, in the letter dated " March 16, 2001".
I have never heard of a case remotely as severe in my career, but I do know that some teenagers are very well aware of the powers the law gives them over adults, in my case, teachers, and that they, sadly, can be excellent at manipulating the system for all it's worth.

Then, there was a famous case in France (The d'Outreau Case) a few years ago when primary schoo children (all siblings) accused several adults of having had sex with them (mostly neighbours and one priest). This was a high-profile case. French justice moved even more slowly than usual, the accused spent three years in jail while waiting for thir trial, and when they were tried it turned out that everything had been fabricated, that the kids' mother had been the abuser. The judge's reasoning all along had been on the lines that "children do not lie about such matters".

Niall001 · Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:15 am Post subject:

I imagine that those who have the "Why wasn't I so lucky reaction" would be of a different opinion if it was a male teacher with a male student as well.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:58 am Post subject:

Well, I had this in mind when I argued the legal protection for boys should be the same as for girls.

Actually, when the adult is in a position of authority, one might consider whether the protection/ taboo shouldn't continue at university. When I studied at the University of Cape Town , South Africa, I was told that sex between professors and (adult) students was prohibited because (for example) this might affect the professors' judgement in grading.
But then, this was South Africa in the 1980's, and the list of things that were banned (some pop songs, some theatre plays...) was endless.

I have no idea whether there is or has ever been such a rule in france.

Niall001 · Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:33 am Post subject:

I think the rules against teachers and students sleeping together is in place in most universities, though I could be wrong. Obviously, the potential for teachers to abuse their power is great. But I doubt that has anything to do with the reactions we have to tales of male teachers having sex with young students.

Let me propose a few scenarios. Which of the following do booktalk members think would generate the most outrage in a community?

1. Male Teacher sleeps with 14 year old female student

2. Male Teacher sleeps with 14 year old male student

3. Female Teacher sleeps with 14 year old male student

4. Female Teacher sleeps with 14 year old female student

I suspect that the order would be 2, 1, 4, 3.

However, I also suspect that if you asked people in which scenario the student held the greatest responsibility, the order would be 3, 2, 4, 1.

And weirder still, if you ask most people whether a 14 year old boy or girl is the more mature, they'd probably argue that in general, a 14 year old girl is more mature than a 14 year old boy.

There's no real sense of reason behind the way we react to these kind of stories.

Ophelia · Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:00 am Post subject:

Three points, Niall001:

- By changing the age being discussed from 15 to 14, the discussion changes slightly (we are more outraged).

- The male/male scenario as the worst case: here one adds to the outrage due to the age difference the cultural phobia about male homosexuality (which seems to me to be stronger among men).

- I often find it helpful when discussing some points when I know the writer's gender.

Niall001 · Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:48 am Post subject:

Evelyn, I changed the age to 14 because it makes the situation a little less gray, but there have been cases similar to the one Chris posted about that involved 14 year olds and younger, so it's not irrelevant.

You're correct that homophobia probably plays a role in the male-male scenario, but what I find interesting is that even those liberals who would vote the "right" way on matters like gay marriage, would probably have a similar reaction to their openly homophobic counterparts in the male-male scenario.

But even if it were possible to remove homophobia from the scenarios, the sex of the teacher and the sex of the student would both play important roles. It seems to be assumed that the female in all of these scenarios is more fragile and less likely to be predatory. The males are assumed to stronger and more likely to be predatory. What I find remarkable is that this seems to be the case in spite of the fact that we generally recognise that teenage females are both physically and mentally more mature than males.

As for my gender, I am androgynous. I hope you find this knowledge of use Wink

Constance963 · Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject:

Hi Niall,

Your scenerios are thought provoking and I agree with your order. The male with male would probably be the most publicly outraged because I think to a lot of people it's still the most shocking. Even though homosexuals are more out in the open in this day and age, homophobia is still so present in soceity.

I also find the double standard interesting for a male teacher with a female student versus a female teacher with a male student. You are correct, we were always taught in health class in school that girls mature faster than boys, both physically and mentally. So with this assumption, taking a boy and a girl of the same age, the girl supposedly would be the most mature (I'm sure not in every case). But yet we are more outraged about the victimized young girl. Psychologically do we have a need to think of girls as more pure and innocent or less sexual at that age than boys? Or is it just a gender difference that we assume girls are being taken advantage of while boys are gaining "experience"?

Just wondering what others thoughts are on this subject. I don't have children yet so I don't know how I would feel but I hope I would feel outraged no matter what the sex of my child.

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject:

Constance963 · Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject:

Mr. Pessimistic · Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject:


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