This is the complete chat transcript from our 2.5 hr. chat with author and scientist Howard Bloom.
Feel free to posts comments and discuss right in this thread.
connected: ezChat version 0.49
Chris OConnor:: Hey Michael
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi chris
Chris OConnor:: Howdy
Chris OConnor:: So what is your estimate? How many do you think will show up?
Chris OConnor:: I am hoping for at least 15 total
Chris OConnor:: It sure would be a bummer if Howard Bloom didn't come
Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi quibbit
Chris OConnor:: Oh no....Quibbit is a spy and cannot talk to us
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe quibbit is Howard
Chris OConnor:: Nah, Howard said he registered as "HowBloom"
Quibbit:: I'm Howard's assistant.
Chris OConnor:: Hello Quibbit
Quibbit:: My name is Stephen.
Chris OConnor:: And how did you hear about this chat Quibbit?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Stephen
Chris OConnor:: welcome Stephen
Quibbit:: Howard should be here in just a few minutes
Chris OConnor:: Ahh - is this Stephen is assistant?
Chris OConnor:: Yes, we talked on the phone. Good to "see" you. You are taller than I expected.
Quibbit:: Just wanted to be around at least the first few minutes to make sure everything is going okay.
Chris OConnor:: I don't blame you.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you're the guy who steps in if the group tries to lynch Howard?
Chris OConnor:: Does Howard type about average speed?
Chris OConnor:: Michael - that ruins our plan
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh yeah, I wasn't supposed to tell!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sorry, sorry
Chris OConnor:: You are forgiven
Quibbit:: I think so, maybe a bit faster if he's really going.
Chris OConnor:: I'm good like that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that means I'm in the "in group'
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - well, we have no real format. I think Howard has enough formal engagements. I hope this is enjoyable for him.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: oh no...William Shatner is going do another album
Quibbit:: More people likely to show up at the last few minutes?
Quibbit:: Yeah, it should be fun for him.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi xilog
xilog:: hi there
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Yes, there should be many more people coming over the next 15 minutes
Chris OConnor:: Hey Xilog!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "A brutality that speaks to us through the animals in our brain" is a nice line
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Howard should make poetry out of some of his lines in Lucifer
Chris OConnor:: Yes, Howard is a metaphorical master
Chris OConnor:: That is his marketing genius shining through
Quibbit:: I think that he has something like that in the works. I think actually there's been some talk of a musical adaptation.
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - are you serious?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: could be a brutal remake of mary poppins
Chris OConnor:: LOL
Chris OConnor:: Ok, no more egg nog for you Michael
Quibbit:: Yeah.. Actually.. I'll see if I can give you the link to an mp3 someone did of a show he was in.
Quibbit:: I think he's getting on now.
Chris OConnor:: Thanks Stephen
Chris OConnor:: Hello Bugteach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi bugteach
Bugteach:: hello room
Chris OConnor:: Let me guess - you are a biology teacher?
Chris OConnor:: Stephen - Howard doesn't sing does he?
Bugteach:: top of the evening to you all
Chris OConnor:: and to you too Bug
Chris OConnor:: Where are you from? ...and how did you hear about this chat?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sings "bloody bloody genes, playing bloody scenes.."
Chris OConnor:: Is that your own song Michael - it is lovely
Bugteach:: Howard informed me by way of chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just made it up
Chris OConnor:: I would love to hear about all of Howard's experiences with the music industry too - but no time for that tonight
Chris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh - so you got my email I imagine
Chris OConnor:: Michael - you are quite skilled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wanna hear about where Michael Jackson fits into the superorganism
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Steve
Chris OConnor:: Steve!
Chris OConnor:: Good to see ya
stevepainter:: I just said to my wife that Chris might be freaking if I don't sign in soon
Chris OConnor:: Bug - where are you at though?
Chris OConnor:: Steve - good point
Bugteach:: Gary Indiana
Chris OConnor:: Bug - Ahh well good to have you with us tonight.
stevepainter:: oh, that makes me think of The Music Man
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "The slightest slip from the true path, they feel, can send Satan's minions writing through every vein of their body."
Bugteach:: Michael Jackson's hatching point
Bugteach:: thanks for the invite
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi Howard!
Johnny Neuron joined
howbloom:: glad to see you
Chris OConnor:: Howard! Welcome
stevepainter:: hello all
moose1567:: hi room
Chris OConnor:: Hey Moose - and Johnny
howbloom:: chris, thanks for having me
Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is our pleasure
howbloom:: Steve, moose, Johnny
Johnny Neuron:: Hello everyone...and especially Mr. Bloom!
Chris OConnor:: And there is Jeremy
moose1567:: Mr. bloom
howbloom:: it's good to meet you and Jeremy too
Chris OConnor:: So everyone hangs outside the front door waiting for the last minute I see
Jeremy1952:: Hi Howard, thank you !
howbloom:: any interesting things you've been discussing?
Bugteach:: hello Howard thanks for inviting me
Jeremy1952:: I was fiddling with the colors
howbloom:: any interesting questions?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in your thoughts on the current rash of middle beastliness
howbloom:: my son Walter says this chat process is cool
howbloom:: oi vey
Jeremy1952:: Middle beastliness? What does that mean?
howbloom:: ok, what is your opinion of what's going on in the middle east
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the Middle Beast
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: i.e. Iraq
Chris OConnor:: yes, I am interested in the Middle east situation too and I was intrigued by your views on the "barbaric" nature of Islam
howbloom:: why did we pick Iraq as a target?
Chris OConnor:: My opinion is you hit the nail on the head
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was reminded of Lucifer when the outbreak of patriotism happened after 911
Chris OConnor:: hmmm
howbloom:: militant Islam has put as at the center of its sights
howbloom:: its gun sights
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: got the feeling America was becoming a militant organism
howbloom:: it's targeted us as an enemy
Chris OConnor:: I am personally concerned that our choosing Iraq has too much to do with Bush Jr. making up for his fathers mistakes
howbloom:: war is built into our biology
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about Bush's use of religious language..."evil" etc
Chris OConnor:: I totally see that
howbloom:: it's been with us for 3.5 billion years
stevepainter:: I don't know, I thought that Christianity among others was just as barbaric - economic prosperity and societal development have just progressed faster for us
howbloom:: so when we're attacked by others who follow our common instinctual heritage
howbloom:: our military instincts are aroused
Jeremy1952:: Perhaps. But biology teaches me that cooperation is ultimately more powerful than competition
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there any force in biology to compensate for our need to destroy? Or will the world just fall apart as WMD become available to small groups?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - that was the most impressive concept - war, hatred, violence - all part of our struggle to exist
moose1567:: we are targeted because of our openness of mind and freedom of religions
howbloom:: me too, re cooperation outweigh competition
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Islamic groups also project repressed sexuality onto us
howbloom:: the western world, western civilization
stevepainter:: definitely- cooperation helps groups survive
Jeremy1952:: You're familiar with Axelrod? His example of WWII soldiers refusing to hurt one another?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they feel guilty and attack us for representing their guilt
howbloom:: has purged itself of violence more successfully than any previous system of human social integration
Chris OConnor:: Moose - I would think that is a part of it
howbloom:: who feels guilty?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Muslims re: sexuality
Chris OConnor:: Not I
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: America is seen as sexually expressive
Jeremy1952:: Muslims feeling guilty about their own denied sexuality.
howbloom:: Muslims feel guilty about sexuality:
howbloom:: yes, the west is despised for its sexuality
howbloom:: for its depravity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the psychohistory guys talk a lot about that
Chris OConnor:: yes, I read "The Arab Mind" which covered that issue
howbloom:: for having no manners
Jeremy1952:: Of course we go a few rounds on that too (USAians, not necessarily all westerners)
howbloom:: no civilization
howbloom:: no propriety
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: are you familiar with Lloyd's psychohistory list, Howard?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we really don't have a lot of manners
howbloom:: for harboring fornication and homosexuality
stevepainter:: we seem to have a split personality in regards to sexuality
Chris OConnor:: How so Steve?
howbloom:: I'm having trouble reading and writing at the same time
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see more research on parallels between Islamic and Christian fundamentalists
howbloom:: how do we simplify the dialog
Chris OConnor:: Howard - take your time
Bugteach:: are the present terrorist attacks a direct result of some infringement of the rats mimi
howbloom:: ok ,let's concentrate on Christian fundamentalism and Islamic fundamentalism, ok?
Chris OConnor:: We will all slow down
Chris OConnor:: Ok, sounds like a plan Howard
Jeremy1952:: The usual technique in "chat" is to selectively ignore; I guess that's a ltitle harder for an invited guest, though!
howbloom:: these are two areas I've researched
howbloom:: and have spent 20 years fighting personally
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: all the Christians seem excited about Armageddon lately
stevepainter:: on the one hand we harbor a Victorian idea of what proper behavior is, but on the other we sell sex in every way
howbloom:: yes, the rapture
howbloom:: but here's the bottom line
howbloom:: Christian fundamentalism killed over 180 people in Oklahoma city
howbloom:: one doctor in my hometown, Buffalo, NY
howbloom:: and has planted several bombs
howbloom:: at abortion clinics
Chris OConnor:: yes, very true
howbloom:: it's dangerous and filled with hate
howbloom:: and its promoted absurd forms of censorship
Jeremy1952:: So; are the fundamentalists really a different "thing" than the rest of the religion?
Chris OConnor:: I believe all religions to be dangerous
howbloom:: getting rid of Harry Potter for being satanic
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think so Jeremy, I think they're a distinct subculture
howbloom:: fundamentalists cohere
stevepainter:: religious fundamentalism of every stripe can be barbaric and dangerous
howbloom:: more strongly than others
howbloom:: they cohere around hatred
howbloom:: despising evil
Jeremy1952:: But doesn't any religion have the potential to become more dangerous? Or less?
howbloom:: and fighting ig
stevepainter:: it's fear really I think
howbloom:: fighting is a great bonding mechanism
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: any group of humans, Jeremy
Chris OConnor:: I was not aware of the hatred preaches in the Koran, but our Bible is not much better
howbloom:: do you remember
stevepainter:: the hatred that is
Johnny Neuron:: I definitely feel there is a rise in Christian fundamentalism here in the US; take the "Left Behind" series ie.
Chris OConnor:: How so Howard?
howbloom:: back in the days of Marxism vs. capitalism
howbloom:: how the revolutionaries always called for
Jeremy1952:: Hmmm... well, but groups of humans have the potential for being dealt with rationally. We have goals that
howbloom:: unity, fraternity, solidarity?
Jeremy1952:: can turn in to mutual goals. Religions, on the other hand, seem inherently self serving;
Chris OConnor:: Yes Howard
howbloom:: for camaraderie
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: probably has a lot to do with early experiences with authority too
howbloom:: all these are bonding terms
howbloom:: people need desperately to bond
howbloom:: deeply with other human beings
Jeremy1952:: death dealing if that spreads the meme, peace dealing if that works today
moose1567:: Hi Nadia!!!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think it's also a need to purge one's own group of dissonance? guilt, shame etc?
howbloom:: fundamentalism uses a primary bonding mechanism
Jeremy1952:: Hey Nadia
Chris OConnor:: Howard - very true
howbloom:: yes to dissonance guilt and shame
NaddiaAoC:: Hi everyone!
howbloom:: they're part of the brew
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: fundamentalists seem to use a lot of military metaphors
howbloom:: i was just sitting with an Islamic friend
Jeremy1952:: Do you see it, Howard, as a technique being used by fundamentalists, or is it more
howbloom:: who wondered why his community in Brooklyn
howbloom:: is gung ho for holy war
howbloom:: for the idea
Jeremy1952:: an evolution, selection, within the meme of fundamentalism?
howbloom:: that death is more important to us
Chris OConnor:: Howard - individual humans are somewhat predictable, but it is when large groups act as one that we seem to experience horrific results
howbloom:: than life is to you
howbloom:: this is an idea that's taking off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is death some kind of ecstatic union?
howbloom:: in an Islamic community of middle and upper middle
howbloom:: class professionals
howbloom:: here in Brooklyn
Johnny Neuron:: Mr. Bloom, I am a former fundamentalist (former Jehovah's Witness) and I agree that most fundamentalists have more in common with other opposing fundamentalists than say, liberal religionists. It seems that social cohesion is more important than doctrine or dogma.
howbloom:: militant Islam has a horrible track record for delivery
howbloom:: it oppresses the poor horribly
stevepainter:: really? I didn't know the more educated were in on the idea of jihad also
howbloom:: by making them
howbloom:: far poorer
howbloom:: than ever before
Jeremy1952:: One of the things I learned from your book, though, is that delivering on promises isn't all that important
Jeremy1952:: to the success of a cult
howbloom:: look at Egypt
howbloom:: you're right
howbloom:: you hit the point
howbloom:: let me tell you
howbloom:: about Egypt, ok?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can always blame the enemy for your own failure to deliver
howbloom:: in 1951
Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremy
howbloom:: Egypt had the same standard of living
howbloom:: as south Korea
howbloom:: today the average Korean
howbloom:: makes 20 times as much
howbloom:: per year
Chris OConnor:: wow
howbloom:: as the average Egyptian
howbloom:: and in the last
howbloom:: 20 years
howbloom:: the Egyptian standard of living
howbloom:: and that in all
howbloom:: the Arab countries
howbloom:: has deteriorated dramatically
howbloom:: its plunged
howbloom:: to the level
howbloom:: of sub Saharan Africa
howbloom:: which has
Chris OConnor:: As the result of what? - what is fueling their demise?
howbloom:: the lowest standard of living
Jeremy1952:: Well, is that a good thing, or a bad thing? Didn't you say that it is success that leads to warlike behavior?
howbloom:: anywhere in the world
stevepainter:: so are the despotic-style rulers the cause or the effect?
howbloom:: it's a result of military
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: weapon hunger
howbloom:: killing lust
howbloom:: hate frenzy
howbloom:: righteous anger stoking
moose1567:: the new world order?
Jeremy1952:: aha. Yea, that makes sense. Especially in light of what North Korea is doing
howbloom:: in other words
howbloom:: it's a result of drugging
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see the US having some problems, states are running out of money and we're diverting social funds into military ventures
howbloom:: the masses not with an opioid
howbloom:: but with a steroid
howbloom:: we can get into the states later
howbloom:: billions of dollars
stevepainter:: promise them power rather than a prosperous future?
Chris OConnor:: explain this steroid concept
howbloom:: have gone through Arab hands
howbloom:: billions of
howbloom:: oil dollars
howbloom:: billions of dollars in aid
howbloom:: and all that money
Timothy Schoonover joined
howbloom:: has gone for just one thing
moose1567:: hi Tim
Chris OConnor:: Hey Tim - pull up a chair
howbloom:: for courage
howbloom:: for heroism
howbloom:: for victory
Timothy Schoonover:: argh...I'm late?
howbloom:: which means for weapons
howbloom:: for killing
howbloom:: putting all your money
NaddiaAoC:: hi Tim
Chris OConnor:: Howard - makes so much sense
howbloom:: into weaponry produces
howbloom:: and yet the Arabs
howbloom:: and their fellow Moslems
howbloom:: are more determined
howbloom:: than ever
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there a sexual tension between being "manly" and being "weak" involved here?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - but in Lucifer you stress the need to always be at the ready - against the "barbarians"
howbloom:: to spread their message globally
howbloom:: because anger bonds
howbloom:: righteousness bonds
howbloom:: fury bonds
howbloom:: righteous indignation bonds
howbloom:: and humans live
howbloom:: on the oxygen of attention
howbloom:: they live in a sea of bonds or
Chris OConnor:: so true...anger and hatred bond - we need enemies to vent our hatred towards
howbloom:: isolation kills
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: does it also wash away the feeling of contamination?
howbloom:: bonding brings life
howbloom:: the Arabs and non
howbloom:: Arab Moslems know exactly
stevepainter:: that would explain why isolationism never works
stevepainter:: in the long run
howbloom:: where all the sin
howbloom:: n the world is
howbloom:: it is here
howbloom:: in the west
howbloom:: particularly in the us
howbloom:: so the ultimate goal of
howbloom:: an Osama would be
howbloom:: something like this
howbloom:: to get his hands on Pakistan's nukes
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: on Pakistan's next generation stealth subs
howbloom:: on Pakistan's mid
howbloom:: range ballistic missiles
howbloom:: which fit snugly
howbloom:: into the forward portion of the
howbloom:: missile delivering subs
howbloom:: to set one of Pakistan's
howbloom:: three subs on a path
howbloom:: to North America's
howbloom:: Atlantic coast
Jeremy1952:: So , do we need a proper enemy to bond us together? Are we making a mistake not wallowing in hatred of Muslims &/or Arabs?
howbloom:: these subs have a 10,000
howbloom:: mile range
Chris OConnor:: A nuke attack on our nation could bring us to our knees, perhaps cast us into the dark ages instantly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is Bush risking instability in Pakistan by attacking Iraq?
howbloom:: to send
howbloom:: another sub
howbloom:: to the pacific coast
howbloom:: and to nuke America's fifteen
stevepainter:: I don't think so Jeremy - we paint a country as an enemy and that seems to work pretty well
howbloom:: largest cities
howbloom:: it would be the pr coup of th
howbloom:: the 21st
howbloom:: it would do for
howbloom:: Osama what
Chris OConnor:: Howard - our country would fall
howbloom:: destroying the populations
howbloom:: of entire cities
howbloom:: did for Alexander
howbloom:: Alexander of Macedon
Chris OConnor:: Howard - 2 large buildings destroyed and our nation completely shut down for awhile
howbloom:: became Alexander the great
Jeremy1952:: I don't know. I'm not comfortable hating. It took me a year after 9-11 to STOP hating Muslims; and that was helped by
howbloom:: via body count
Johnny Neuron:: Isn't the Pakistani govt. an ally of the US though?
Jeremy1952:: a realization that consistency would require hating Christians, too.
howbloom:: don't hate Moslems, don't at all
howbloom:: hate Moslem militancy
howbloom:: just as you hate the
Chris OConnor:: It is not the Muslims, but the meme
howbloom:: militancy of the
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't hate Islam at all. I see it as a runaway system, and our system is in danger of the same thing
howbloom:: Christian fundamentalists
howbloom:: holed up in Idaho
howbloom:: our job
Jeremy1952:: Two separate things, though; I was asking if we SHOULD, not if it is rational.
Chris OConnor:: excellent point
howbloom:: is to save Moslems
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't even hate the virus of fundamentalism, it's just a psychological disease
howbloom:: just as they think
Jeremy1952:: If it works for them... bonding ...
howbloom:: their job is to save us
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jeremy, it is a good question, how to bond ourselves
howbloom:: their are better ways of
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: good point
howbloom:: we need to know
Chris OConnor:: Michael - it is a disease that must be cured before it brings the entire superorganism down
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: opposites attract
howbloom:: what we stand for
howbloom:: what we offer
stevepainter:: but Jeremy - we'd be turning on many of our own Americans who are Muslims
howbloom:: that's worth living and dying for
howbloom:: many Moslems believe
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as Osama turned on those Muslims
howbloom:: in the western system
howbloom:: as passionately as I do
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we should emphasize that militant Muslims don't' care about American Muslims at all
howbloom:: and many more can be cut loose
howbloom:: from the plague
howbloom:: of violence
howbloom:: of militancy
stevepainter:: all the more reason we shouldn't "hate Muslims"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about the effect of a war in Iraq on this
howbloom:: Osama's reasoning
howbloom:: about our Moslems
howbloom:: is this
howbloom:: we can afford
howbloom:: he says,
howbloom:: to lose 100 million Moslems
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've heard a lot of Americans in chat rooms say "first we'll take Iraq, then Saudi, then Iran"
howbloom:: in order to do
howbloom:: what Allah demands
howbloom:: to take over the world
howbloom:: the Moslem websites are now
howbloom:: talking openly about
howbloom:: "taking Europe back"
stevepainter:: Saudi Arabia is really the force behind most of this
howbloom:: to make Europe the
howbloom:: Moslem territory
howbloom:: it was always
howbloom:: meant to be
howbloom:: with no us
howbloom:: in the picture
howbloom:: no united
Chris OConnor:: and this is indeed the goal of the Islamic faith - world domination and stated in the Koran
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so does this boil down to a third world war?
howbloom:: Europe would have to bow
Bugteach:: sight a web sight please
Jeremy1952:: Well, that was the stated goal of world communism too...
howbloom:: on its knees
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you read Revelation, it's an almost identical vision, only with Jesus as the ruler
howbloom:: to Osama
howbloom:: the new what
howbloom:: does he call it
howbloom:: not the emir
Timothy Schoonover:: It's inherent to the nature of memes, no?
howbloom:: but the new leader yes
howbloom:: of a global empire
howbloom:: the world is going global
howbloom:: Islam was built for
Chris OConnor:: wow
howbloom:: its the only religion
howbloom:: that offers a
howbloom:: global system of
howbloom:: laws and government
stevepainter:: but the fundamental version is just as repressive as any other
Chris OConnor:: our position as world leader teeters on the edge of collapse
Jeremy1952:: One ray of hope in my world view, is that parasites tend to get less dangerous over time
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: was just reading a paragraph from Lucifer: "If we ever save ourselves from the scourge of mass violence, it will be through the efforts of millions of minds, networked together..."
howbloom:: yes, this
howbloom:: is a turning point
howbloom:: in history
howbloom:: the things we discuss
howbloom:: today, now
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think that is what Global Brain is about
howbloom:: in this chat
howbloom:: may make a difference
Jeremy1952:: If you look at old time Christianity it looks about as bad as 21 century Islam
howbloom:: in the direction history takes tomorrow
Chris OConnor:: yes, there are seeds being planted right now
Johnny Neuron left
howbloom:: old time Christianity was
Jeremy1952:: but it seems to have "mellowed" over the centuries
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do people end up acting like the gods they follow?
howbloom:: BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT
howbloom:: we've evolved beyond it
howbloom:: to new forms of competition
stevepainter:: for the most part
howbloom:: creative competition
Jeremy1952:: Just like the diseases we live with; pneumonia has been around a long time, so we have come to terms with it. A truce, more or less.
howbloom:: that enriches
howbloom:: not impoverishes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: one girl trained as a suicide bomber decided not to go through with it...she felt the jihadists were playing with the blood of the martyrs
Jeremy1952:: Malaria is relatively young and quite destructive
howbloom:: let me tell you a story
stevepainter:: many seem to want to bring back "old time Christianity"
Johnny Neuron joined
howbloom:: about cotton
Chris OConnor:: yes, please do
howbloom:: once upon a time
howbloom:: 200 years ago or so
Chris OConnor:: true Steve
howbloom:: cotton was
howbloom:: something only the rich could
howbloom:: it was comfortable
howbloom:: as all get out
howbloom:: it was easily laundered
howbloom:: which means
Timothy Schoonover:: yeah it is!
howbloom:: no more lice or bugs
howbloom:: but it came from India
howbloom:: via the Indian ocean
howbloom:: down to Yemen
Bugteach:: excuse me :0
howbloom:: ok bug,
howbloom:: what is it?
howbloom:: should I
howbloom:: return to the tale?
howbloom:: normal folks
Jeremy1952:: <-- listening to tale
howbloom:: wore wool clothing
Bugteach:: no joking on my name I am very interested continue please
howbloom:: that couldn't be laundered easily
Chris OConnor:: Please do Howard
howbloom:: irritated the skin
howbloom:: and was a great home
howbloom:: for bugs of all kinds
howbloom:: then we had several innovations
howbloom:: remember back
howbloom:: in the days of Henry the 8th
howbloom:: when Henry got
Chris OConnor:: I don't personally
howbloom:: a wild idea
howbloom:: and did something the Turks had
howbloom:: already done
howbloom:: but multiplied it exponentially?
howbloom:: he put
howbloom:: cannons on sailing ships
howbloom:: tons and tons of them
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: and England went from a lesser power
howbloom:: in Europe
howbloom:: to a world force
howbloom:: over the next 200 years
stevepainter:: military innovation
howbloom:: thanks to its navy
Chris OConnor:: Yes
howbloom:: but England needed wood to make its ships
Jeremy1952:: with you so far
howbloom:: and the wood in England
howbloom:: had been pretty much used up
howbloom:: to keep homes warm
stevepainter:: we need oil for our war toys?
howbloom:: the country was running out of
howbloom:: the stuff
howbloom:: now think back to those lazy
howbloom:: sons of bitches
howbloom:: the aristocracy
howbloom:: what do they talk about incessantly
howbloom:: in pj wodehouse novels?
howbloom:: breeding things
howbloom:: how to improve a
howbloom:: breed of
howbloom:: a breed of pigs
howbloom:: a breed in the family
howbloom:: the breeding obsession
howbloom:: of the English aristocrats
howbloom:: gave us Darwin's theory
howbloom:: of natural selection
howbloom:: and it gave England
howbloom:: something more
howbloom:: not sex alone
howbloom:: we're talking early genetic engineering
howbloom:: the British
howbloom:: learned the value
howbloom:: of mono cropping
howbloom:: of concentrating on just one crop
howbloom:: per estate
howbloom:: finding out which
howbloom:: crop worked best
howbloom:: on the sort of land you had
howbloom:: and pouring your
howbloom:: your soul
howbloom:: your energy
howbloom:: into genetically
howbloom:: engineering the stuff
howbloom:: via breeding
howbloom:: England needed
howbloom:: wood to build more ships
howbloom:: so they mono cropped trees
howbloom:: they build a new
howbloom:: agricultural innovation
howbloom:: are you ready?
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: the plantation
howbloom:: the single crop super producer
howbloom:: par excellence
howbloom:: they raised oak for
howbloom:: they raised, I believe
Jeremy1952:: Ah! so the plantation was invented to grow trees for warships. Fascinating.
howbloom:: fast growing pines for
howbloom:: the less important things
howbloom:: so the British now had a
howbloom:: 's go back
howbloom:: to an earlier innovation
howbloom:: allow me to take you to
howbloom:: 200 bc
stevepainter:: why not
howbloom:: that's 200 ad
howbloom:: now the Romans had been importing
howbloom:: Chinese and Indian
Jeremy1952:: <- takes time travel pill and plunges ahead
howbloom:: goods for a very long time
howbloom:: in fact they ran
howbloom:: a heavy balance of payments
Chris OConnor:: :0
howbloom:: deficit with
howbloom:: because their noblewomen outdid
howbloom:: each other to wear the best
howbloom:: silk gowns
howbloom:: silk was shipped
howbloom:: via the old silk road
howbloom:: the trip took
howbloom:: i believe
howbloom:: 3 years or so
howbloom:: and was dangerous
howbloom:: as hell
howbloom:: so silk cost a fortune
howbloom:: then a clever arab
howbloom:: 400 years before Mohammed's
howbloom:: did a very evolutionary thing
howbloom:: he figured out
howbloom:: how to make catastrophe
howbloom:: into something positive
howbloom:: the catastrophe
howbloom:: was the monsoon
howbloom:: whose impact you know
howbloom:: flooding and destruction, right?
howbloom:: but he saw more than carnage
howbloom:: he notice a pattern
howbloom:: in the way the monsoons go
howbloom:: for one part of the year
Chris OConnor:: yes
howbloom:: the blow northeast
howbloom:: and in the other part of the year
Chris OConnor:: Travel
Chris OConnor:: He used the winds
howbloom:: they blow southwest
howbloom:: meanwhile, the Arabs
Chris OConnor:: and currents
howbloom:: had invented
howbloom:: something called
howbloom:: the lateen sail
Chris OConnor:: yep
howbloom:: a triangular sail
howbloom:: you could use t
Chris OConnor:: both ways
howbloom:: outwit the wind
howbloom:: and tack
howbloom:: you've got it chris
Chris OConnor:: very impressive invention
howbloom:: using ships
howbloom:: with this sail
Chris OConnor:: incredible step forward - no longer were we slaves to nature
howbloom:: he realized you could sail to India
howbloom:: via a sea borne
howbloom:: then wait for the winds
howbloom:: to change
howbloom:: and sail back to
howbloom:: or Qatar
howbloom:: once again
howbloom:: other Arab inventors
howbloom:: had come up with a way
howbloom:: to create a virtual
howbloom:: sea lane
howbloom:: across the Arab peninsula
howbloom:: to the Mediterranean sea
howbloom:: the didn't dig a canal
howbloom:: they domesticated
howbloom:: and organized them
howbloom:: in a cargo carrying caravan
howbloom:: the high price the Romans
howbloom:: had paid
howbloom:: for goods from the east
howbloom:: went down dramatically
howbloom:: that meant the price of cotton and of silk
howbloom:: and ceramics--
howbloom:: tea cups
howbloom:: and, yes
Chris OConnor:: welcome Kevin
howbloom:: but still only the super rich could
howbloom:: actually afford these
howbloom:: these ultra luxuries.
howbloom:: now for the British ships
stevepainter:: (a cup of tea sounds good)
howbloom:: we'll skip the
howbloom:: who found the sea route
howbloom:: around the tip
howbloom:: of Africa
howbloom:: and cut the price of eastern goods in half
howbloom:: the brits acquired
howbloom:: as the Jewel in the crown of empire
Chris OConnor:: True
howbloom:: the French built the Suez Canal
howbloom:: all this brought the price of cotton clothing down
howbloom:: then the brits
howbloom:: used their invention
howbloom:: the plantation
howbloom:: to raise cotton
howbloom:: in some of the new places they'd conquered
howbloom:: the islands of the Caribbean
howbloom:: and the American south
howbloom:: we'll skip the very sticky
howbloom:: and wretched issue of slave
howbloom:: trading, which was
howbloom:: invented by the Arabs
howbloom:: using those old
howbloom:: monsoon winds
howbloom:: to establish slave trading
howbloom:: entrepots in east Africa
howbloom:: so now we had
howbloom:: mass production of raw cotton
howbloom:: the price of cotton goods went down again
howbloom:: now the upper middle class
stevepainter:: slave trading was invented by the Arabs? - Please get back to that later
howbloom:: could afford the stuff
howbloom:: like Jacques Louis David's wife's sister
howbloom:: whose father had made his money
Johnny Neuron left
howbloom:: like Osama's dad had
howbloom:: in construction
howbloom:: building the Louvre
howbloom:: in 1800
howbloom:: the power loom was invented
howbloom:: it was England's top
howbloom:: secret technology
howbloom:: now cotton goods were produced
howbloom:: in such profusion
howbloom:: that the price was low enough for the
howbloom:: ordinary man and woman
howbloom:: and a new cry went up
howbloom:: a nation's civilization
howbloom:: is measured by the amount of soap it uses
howbloom:: the death rate went down
howbloom:: because you could buy
howbloom:: enough cotton clothing
howbloom:: to actually change it
howbloom:: and unlike wool
howbloom:: you could wash it
howbloom:: but here's the real point of the story
howbloom:: when folks like my old client
howbloom:: Stewart Copeland
howbloom:: or my anthropologist
howbloom:: go to Africa
howbloom:: in search of the most primitive tribes
howbloom:: with the purest indigenous
Chris OConnor:: And if anyone has a question for Howard - feel free to throw it out there when he finishes
howbloom:: cultures on this earth
howbloom:: what do they find?
howbloom:: what do their photos show?
howbloom:: people living in squalor and poverty
howbloom:: people making almost no cash
howbloom:: living at all
howbloom:: are wearing cotton t shirts
howbloom:: cotton shorts
howbloom:: and cotton hats
howbloom:: the western system
howbloom:: has elevated the poor and the oppressed
Timothy Schoonover joined
howbloom:: the goal of every religion
howbloom:: we've achieved it
howbloom:: now we have to believe it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: don't forget Nike logos
howbloom:: to defend it
howbloom:: the system of competition via creativity
howbloom:: rather than competition
howbloom:: via the gun
howbloom:: competition via
howbloom:: fundamentalist militancy
Jeremy1952:: So, not to go off on a total tangent, but may I ask a question about the "Lucifer Principle" itself?
howbloom:: buying weapons has impoverished the Arab nations
howbloom:: ummm, should
stevepainter:: go for it Jeremy
howbloom:: we first answer the
howbloom:: question about
howbloom:: Arabs inventing African enslavement?
Chris OConnor:: Sure
stevepainter:: no - I asked that - let Jeremy go
Chris OConnor:: We just don't want to let you slip away
howbloom:: the Arabs and their wonderful ships were capable
howbloom:: of jihad in Africa
howbloom:: they traveled up and down the eastern coast
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm interested in the process of projection...people projecting their own "evil" onto others and becoming immune to communication
howbloom:: establishing cities like Mobassa
Jeremy1952:: LOL Well, it struck me that the "Lucifer Principle" is the second half of something... the breaking down side
howbloom:: and languages based on Arabic
howbloom:: like Swahili
Jeremy1952:: of construction; but there has to be a "building up" side to chip away at
howbloom:: you're right
howbloom:: the Lucifer principle
Chris OConnor:: Good point Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: I'm wondering if the "other side" has a name, an identity
howbloom:: deliberately focused on the negative side of creativity
Chris OConnor:: How could we summarize the Lucifer Principle
howbloom:: science is blind to the other side
howbloom:: which is something I'm working on
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: I'm working on helping science
howbloom:: see the inherent
howbloom:: creativity in this cosmos
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is there an email forum for Lucifer principle or related?
howbloom:: and to find a way to explain it
howbloom:: there's a global brain chat group
howbloom:: but none that I know of on
howbloom:: the Lucifer principle
howbloom:: creativity is at
Chris OConnor:: I will give you all the info for the Global Brain chat group
Chris OConnor:: I am a member
howbloom:: the heart of what we have to defend
howbloom:: at this time in history
howbloom:: why Iraq?
howbloom:: that's what I wonder
Chris OConnor:: Yes, great question
howbloom:: here's what my Islamic friend
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so it's really a war between cultural creative and fundamentalists?
howbloom:: said the week after 9/11
Jeremy1952:: So you truly feel that nature has a direction, a goal; that isn't just metaphor?
howbloom:: yes, it's a war between the creative and the destructive force of
howbloom:: human social evolution
howbloom:: yes, I feel that nature takes quantum
howbloom:: leaps upward
howbloom:: in creativity
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it seems like we put most of our creativity into the machinery of selling things, rather than spreading positive ideas about culture
howbloom:: on a fairly regular basis
howbloom:: with us or without us
howbloom:: but if we want to survive
stevepainter:: by nature do you mean "human nature"?
howbloom:: it will have to be with us
howbloom:: I'm talking about a big bang
howbloom:: emerging from a singularity
howbloom:: I'm talking about a singularity
howbloom:: emerging from a nothingness
howbloom:: I'm talking about a
Chris OConnor:: yes, what is your take on that?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Muslims look at our culture and they see our fragmentation and our chaotic grouping...should we set a new example by bonding without violence?
howbloom:: throbbing soup of high speed particles
howbloom:: a plasma at
Bugteach:: what about mother earths alter ego?
howbloom:: the beginning of the universe
Chris OConnor:: A singularity coming from nothing makes no sense
howbloom:: when no plasma had ever existed before
howbloom:: I'm talking about the pressure waves
Jeremy1952:: The universe is not obligated to make sense to us
howbloom:: the first music
stevepainter:: MG - I don't think most non-Americans see how we are a group (even though we seem to disagree a lot)
howbloom:: that rang that plasma like a gong
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - true, but damn I want it to
AvatarofPower:: but isn't 'creativity' a human invention? Creativity is just the human definition for a consciousness discovering utility... how does creativity exist as a function of the universe?
howbloom:: and I'm talking about 100,000 years later
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Steve--as an American I see a lot of aimlessness
howbloom:: when an extraordinary
howbloom:: creative leap occurred
howbloom:: protons discovered
Chris OConnor:: Avatar - excellent wording - I have to agree
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a long term war would give us purpose but would it really bond us or would it make the culture wars toxic?
howbloom:: that they were attracted to particles
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think human creativity is similar in many ways to natural processes...evolution being one
stevepainter:: but when challenged we form a fairly cohesive group
howbloom:: only one 1,850th their size
howbloom:: and atoms emerged
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: artists don't create from a plan, they recombine and sift like nature does
Jeremy1952:: But what is driving it? Is it blind evolution, "Santa Fe" principles of self-organization? Or some actual directional, what?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you seem to speak of natures creative forces almost as if there is some sort of sentience or "life" to it
howbloom:: this is the big question
howbloom:: i do not believe there
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think any system would tend toward greater complexity, at least under the right conditions
howbloom:: is sentience to it
howbloom:: but it has direction
Chris OConnor:: Howard - pheeww
howbloom:: it is an impulsive
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Ok, I am with you
howbloom:: and propulsive force
stevepainter:: I don't believe it has a direction
howbloom:: that produces grandeur
Bugteach:: the alter ego right?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: trajectory might be a better word
howbloom:: it produced atoms from a shou
Jeremy1952:: Propulsive force... what does that mean?
Chris OConnor:: Bug - explain?
howbloom:: a huge jump upward
howbloom:: I know what he means.
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
Chris OConnor:: Howard - so what would fuel this - as Jeremy asked
howbloom:: this cosmos began with one of the biggest energy rushes you can imagine
Chris OConnor:: True
howbloom:: it's been taking that energy
howbloom:: and making things ever since
Jeremy1952:: (I can't imagine it)
howbloom:: think about it
howbloom:: there was a time when
Chris OConnor:: I am so bewildered by the concept of a singularity
Bugteach:: how said in his book the Satan is mother earths alter ego and is motivating the world now
howbloom:: there were no things at all
Jeremy1952:: So what is "it" that "makes"?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: recombination produces complexity by its nature doesn't it?
howbloom:: no matter
howbloom:: no atoms
AvatarofPower:: right, Howard, but why is it necessary to define it as creativity?
howbloom:: none of the things we take for granted
Chris OConnor:: Bug - ahhhh
stevepainter:: it had to go somewhere - given infinite time to work with
howbloom:: all popped into being
Chris OConnor:: Howard - how the hell could that happen?
howbloom:: do you have a better word for it than
Chris OConnor:: Steve - true, but did it all begin?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there could have been something before the singularity, just nothing we can get a handle on
howbloom:: I could use it
Jeremy1952:: Aside from gravity and fundamental forces of nature, which is what mainstream science attributes it to?
howbloom:: there was pretty obviously a nothing
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I so agree
howbloom:: with simple rules of its own
AvatarofPower:: as time moves forward, energy is moved around... by probability, more new things will happen and more new arrangements will be found...
howbloom:: not probability
howbloom:: forget probability
howbloom:: this is not a totally determined universe
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think we don't have a clue when it all comes down to it - there could be multiple universes, and infinite cycle of expansions and collapses...
AvatarofPower:: you're telling me it is a sentient creativity rather than a random probability
howbloom:: but it is a very constrained universe
stevepainter:: no one knows Chris - try Guth again for a Big Bang friendly idea
howbloom:: bear with me and let me tell you a tiny tale of universal
howbloom:: creativity, cosmic
howbloom:: and its limitations
howbloom:: its rigid boundaries
AvatarofPower:: (yes, Guths inflationary universe is excellent, Steve)
Bugteach:: go for it
howbloom:: unless I've worn you out with stories
Timothy Schoonover:: listening
howbloom:: ok first there is a nothingness
AvatarofPower:: no, please go ahead
Chris OConnor:: Yes, this is interesting
howbloom:: you and I are sitting around at an outdoor
howbloom:: cafe table
howbloom:: before the beginning of the universe
howbloom:: you are a dreamer
howbloom:: I'm a skeptic
howbloom:: you tell me, Howard
howbloom:: just watch out
howbloom:: something's about to happen that you've never seen before
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: <---relieved there is coffee before the beginning of the universe
howbloom:: there's going to be this infinitesimal twist
howbloom:: called a singularity
howbloom:: and from it will burst forth
howbloom:: a new thing that you've never seen
Jeremy1952:: Sounds like we're drifting into Italo Calvino's territory
stevepainter:: what else do you think fueled it, MG?
howbloom:: four forces and an energy
howbloom:: and I would say to you
howbloom:: you're nuts
howbloom:: you're absolutely crazy
howbloom:: I've been here as long as this nothingness
howbloom:: has existed
howbloom:: and no self- constructing
howbloom:: self unfolding infinitesimal
howbloom:: blip with almost infinite eagerness and energy
howbloom:: has ever existed before and
Jeremy1952:: But... but... absolute nothing violates the heisenberg uncertainty principle.
howbloom:: it is so improbable and impossible that it never will
howbloom:: then comes the singularity and proves me to be a fool
Jeremy1952:: Making something inevitable, required
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "nothing" is relatively defined by "things"
howbloom:: 100,000 years later
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - maybe the principle doesn't fit
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "no thing we are familiar with"
howbloom:: we are still sitting at our cafe table
Chris OConnor:: drinking coffee
Jeremy1952:: But true nothing would have an exact momentum - zero - and an a exact location - no where
stevepainter:: vacuum violates the uncertainty principle?
howbloom:: you've predicted all manner of utterly
howbloom:: wacko things
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: <--wondering how star buck's got a monopoly on pre-existential cafes
howbloom:: trios of quarks
Jeremy1952:: Absolutely, Steve. In the real world there is quantum foam.
howbloom:: protons stuck together with gluons
Chris OConnor:: ewww
howbloom:: the whole deal
Chris OConnor:: ok
stevepainter:: you always have quantum fluctuations in the vacuum
howbloom:: and I've been stunned and
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: kleptons - the ones that keep stealing the other particles
howbloom:: amazed that you're lunacy has proved true
Chris OConnor:: LOL
howbloom:: kleptons, I love it ")
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: feel free to steal my memes
howbloom:: ok, pay attention because the universe
howbloom:: is about to pull a rabbit out of a hat again
Chris OConnor:: Yes, Michael is our entertainment at BookTalk - where is Kenny though? I'm not sure how we can define him LOL
howbloom:: I've been watching this plasma bonging
Chris OConnor:: I'm listening
Chris OConnor:: Bonging?
howbloom:: for 100,000 years
howbloom:: yes, pressure waves
stevepainter:: that explains a lot
Jeremy1952:: (i hope its not a cud chewing rabbit, though, like the one a certain desert religion came up with)
howbloom:: physicists call it music
Chris OConnor:: Ok
howbloom:: and you say
howbloom:: I know you're not going to believe this
howbloom:: but I predict that in a couple of whatever
howbloom:: we substitute for days
howbloom:: this banging
Chris OConnor:: tussling
howbloom:: super highs speed broth
howbloom:: of particles, constantly
AvatarofPower:: rustling, bustling, tussling
howbloom:: wangling into each other
howbloom:: and ricocheting
howbloom:: like bullets
howbloom:: bashing each other at high
NaddiaAoC:: Hehe. This sounds like one of your poems, Kevin.
howbloom:: will slow down
howbloom:: and something new will appear
moose1567:: molecular orgy
howbloom:: something with properties beyond anything we've seen
howbloom:: protons are going to discover
howbloom:: an attraction
howbloom:: that makes them glue themselves to electrons
howbloom:: these itty bitty things
howbloom:: that, as I said
howbloom:: are one 1,850th their size
Chris OConnor:: Moose
AvatarofPower:: I don't like this personified 'discover'
howbloom:: and I'd say you are nuts
howbloom:: you're crazy
howbloom:: I've watched this universe for 100,000 years now
howbloom:: particles have always
stevepainter:: what's a year?
howbloom:: bounced off each other
howbloom:: and they always will
howbloom:: the idea of this dance
howbloom:: that your predicting
howbloom:: this particle mating and romance
howbloom:: is just plain crazy
howbloom:: and the next day
Chris OConnor:: Steve - I see your point
howbloom:: the first electron and proton
howbloom:: slow down enough to meet
howbloom:: and sure enough
howbloom:: they mate
Timothy Schoonover:: I'll be damned.
howbloom:: and form an atom
howbloom:: with new properties
howbloom:: radical new things
Jeremy1952:: I think , when you try to visualize and use intuition at the cosmic and /or quantum scale, it is useful to recall
howbloom:: like the following
howbloom:: bear with me
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: there has never been matter in this universe before
Jeremy1952:: that our brains evolved for no such purpose; envisioning quantum interactions and atomic forces
howbloom:: you tell me it's going to come fairly
stevepainter:: good point Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: is a totally alien exercise to our intuition. SO naturally it seems strange to us
howbloom:: and you try to explain matter to me
howbloom:: and once again I think you're loony
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "something that matters"
howbloom:: especially when you tell me
howbloom:: that it's going to be yanked
howbloom:: together by a
howbloom:: force I've never seen
howbloom:: some nutcase frenzy that you call
howbloom:: now I really know you've lost it
Chris OConnor:: Howard - do I sense a 3rd book on the horizon?
howbloom:: but what happens
howbloom:: yes, the big bang tango
howbloom:: but first i have to write The Hidden
Chris OConnor:: That will be the name of the book?
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: Heartbeat of America--Reinventing Capitalism
howbloom:: Soul and
Timothy Schoonover:: hmm
howbloom:: the Wealth of nations
howbloom:: and I have to do it
howbloom:: for a reason someone
Chris OConnor:: I think someone already wrote "The Wealth of nations"
howbloom:: mentioned several minutes ago
Timothy Schoonover:: That's what I'd like to hear about!!
Chris OConnor:: What reason?
howbloom:: because we need to know what we're fighting for
Timothy Schoonover:: Sam Adams =)
Chris OConnor:: Tim LOL
Timothy Schoonover:: or something
Timothy Schoonover:: doh
howbloom:: the only system I know of that's ever elevated the
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I totally agree
howbloom:: and given them t shirts of cotton
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is oil conservation really a "personal virtue"?
howbloom:: with Nike logos
howbloom:: s not matter
Timothy Schoonover:: Adam Smith. even
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can we have Ben jerry's logos instead?
howbloom:: that we're missing
howbloom:: its meaning
howbloom:: its a goal
moose1567:: Islam right?
Chris OConnor:: Tim - ROFL I didn't even catch that
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Meaning Inc.
howbloom:: its idealism
howbloom:: to have idealism, you need to see
howbloom:: clearly the
stevepainter:: only if you get Deep Dark Chocolate ice cream too, MG
Jeremy1952:: Our culture has also given the world Viagra, which, through the law of unintended consequences, is saving
howbloom:: benefits of your system
howbloom:: we don't
howbloom:: we call it a consumerist
Jeremy1952:: endangered tigers in Asia
howbloom:: we demean it
howbloom:: this is the only system that ha
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - those tigers should not be taking Viagra
howbloom:: has ever produced Edited by: Chris OConnor at: 10/30/05 3:55 pm