Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BLOGS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:00 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Michael Shermer on Howard Bloom's "Global Brain" 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 11883
Images: 0
Location: Florida
Highscores: 145
Thanks: 735
Thanked: 339 times in 271 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Michael Shermer on Howard Bloom's "Global Brain"
Head Trips
By Michael Shermer

Washington Post Book World, Sunday , 2000 October 22; Page X13

GLOBAL BRAIN: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the
21st CenturyBy Howard BloomWiley. 370 pp. $27.95

If fossils are the key to recovering a lost past, then words are
living fossils, revealing both origin and meaning. In modern
Greece, for example, moving vans and luggage carts proclaim
"metaphora" on their sides, from the ancient Greek word meaning
"transfer" (based in the root phor, meaning "to bear, carry"). A
metaphor is a figure of speech that transfers or carries meaning
from one object to another.

This linguistic minutia came to mind as I read Howard Bloom's
Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang to the
21st Century. How can one capture the evolution of everything in
the cosmos, from the start to now, in a single book? One way is
through metaphor, and Bloom's choice for his carrier is the
computer--more specifically, the Internet and World Wide Web--
which he hopes will transfer the idea of nerve cells communicating
across a brain to individuals talking across a world.

Bloom correctly credits this metaphor to others (global-brain
metaphors have been common since the early 1980s), but he sees
something deeper, in both time and space. "This planetary mind is
neither uniquely human," he writes, "nor a product of technology."
Indeed, it goes all the way back to the beginning. Al Gore didn't
invent the Internet, bacteria did. "Three and a half billion years
ago, our earliest cellular ancestors, bacteria, evolved in
colonies. Each bacterium couldn't live without the comfort of
rubbing against its neighbors. If it was separated from its
companions, a healthy bacterium would rapidly divide to create a
new society filled with fresh compatriots. Each colony of these
single-celled foremothers faced warfare, disaster, the hunt for
food, and windfalls of plenty as a megateam."

Bloom's "new scientific theory," as he calls it, explains "the
inner workings of something to which conventional evolutionary
thinkers have been blind: a planet pulsing with a more-than-
massive data-sharing mind." Why haven't these scientists shared
Bloom's vision? The tyranny of individual selection has blinded
them to the possibilities of group selection. This is a
contentious issue tantamount to, if you will excuse my own
metaphor-making, the merits of infant baptism as debated by
Baptists and Anabaptists, with emotions running as high and
factions fighting as divisively.

Individual selectionists, best characterized by their champion
Richard Dawkins with his selfish-gene model, argue for a gene-
centered theory of evolution where the chicken is just the egg's
way of getting its DNA into the next generation. Behavior is
selfishly motivated, cooperation is merely the tool of inclusive
fitness, apparent altruism is actually "reciprocal altruism" (I'll
scratch your back if you'll scratch mine, with the "mine" part
reigning supreme). Group selectionists, says Bloom, have their
champion in none other than Charles Darwin, who argued that
individuals can better pass on their DNA by being members of a
group, especially (as Bloom cranks up the metaphor machine) a
group with "hyperlinks," "networks," "nodes" that "interlink our
data" with "new information cabling" whose "wiring upgrade would
someday put us on the road to broadband connectivity." (Would
Darwin have any idea what Bloom is talking about?)

The bridge between individual and group selectionists, says Bloom,
is to be found in a metaphor created by the chaos and complexity
theorists at the Santa Fe Institute--the complex adaptive system
(CAS). A CAS is any system that learns, such as an immune system
that updates its responses to mutating viruses, an economy that
adapts to changes in supply and demand, or an ecosystem that
adapts to decreases in rainfall and increases in temperature. Here
we reach the crux of Bloom's theory about the evolution of the
mass mind (expressed through a mass metaphor):

"Social animals are linked in networks of information exchange.
Meanwhile, self-destruct mechanisms turn a creature on and off
depending on his or her ability to get a handle on the tricks and
traps of circumstance. The result is a complex adaptive system--a
web of semi-independent operatives linked to form a learning
machine. . . . Pit one socially networked problem-solving web
against another--a constant occurrence in nature--and the one
which most successfully takes advantage of complex adaptive
systems rules, that which is the most powerful cooperative
learning contraption, will almost always win."

Bloom's computer metaphor goes into overdrive in his definitive
summary statement: "Our pleasures and our miseries wire us humans
as modules, nodes, components, agents, and microprocessors in the
most intriguing calculator ever to take shape on this earth. It's
the form of social computer which gave not only us but all the
living world around us its first birth." How? Another metaphor is
called for: the neural network--a complex system of neurons that
grow new connections in response to a changing environment. This
is also known as learning.

So far so good, but there is nothing especially innovative in
these metaphors. What Bloom adds to the formula is his theory that
these complex adaptive systems "apply an algorithm--a working
rule--best expressed by Jesus of Nazareth: 'To he [sic] who hath
it shall be given; from he [sic] who hath not even what he hath
shall be taken away.' " This not-so-Christian sentiment can be
seen in immune systems, which consist of billions of antibodies
networked in such a way that "agents which contribute successfully
to the solution of a problem are snowed with resources and
influence. But woe be unto those unable to assist the group."

What makes the CAS metaphor powerful is that it is fractal (to
apply yet another metaphor from chaos theory)--you can scale it up
and down, like those computer-generated fractal coastlines that
look the same at any size. What works for T cells and immune
systems works for bacteria in stromatolite colonies, insects in
plagues, geese in gaggles, dolphins in pods, and people in tribes
and nations. That first bacterial Internet was founded three
billion years ago when, through wind and currents, bacteria
"mastered the art of worldwide information exchange. They swapped
snippets of genetic material like humans trading computer
programs. This system of molecular gossip allowed microorganisms
to telegraph an improvement from the seas of today's Australia to
the shallow waters covering the Midwest of today's North America."

But the exchanges--er, I mean data swaps--were not equitable. The
biblical algorithm meant that life wasn't fair to bacteria, and it
still isn't for us. As Bloom demonstrates with eye-blurring
dollops of data (including more than any reader would ever want to
know about bacteria), at each fractal level the rich get richer
and the poor get poorer. It turns out that it really is who you
know, whether you are a blue-green algae or a blue-eyed babe (or
dude); and evidence shows that the best-looking people get more
attention from their teachers and peers, make more money, get more
dates, and generally cash in on the biblical precept. And,
unfortunately, it works in the other direction in all its cruelty.
Children pick on, and adults are intolerant of, the handicapped
because of "an ancient impulse to distance ourselves from those
who may be carrying one of the primary killers of pre-modern men
and animals--infectious disease."

To make matters worse, overwhelming evidence shows that our
propensity for prejudice is grounded in three billion years of the
evolution of another algorithm: Like attracts like. From protons
and protozoa to pandas and people, all prefer to be with their own
kind. Studies show, for example, that whites prefer to be with
whites, blacks with blacks; Protestants choose Protestants for
friends; Catholics choose Catholics. That doesn't sound so bad
until you consider what whites, blacks, Protestants and Catholics
do to those not in their preferred cohort. "Remember a networked
learning machine's most basic rule: strengthen the connections to
those who succeed, weaken them to those who fail." To the winners
go the spoils, to the losers goes the winner's disdain. This is no
tree-hugging, fuzzy feel-good theory. "Conformity-enforcing packs
of vicious children and adults gradually shape the social
complexes we know as religion, science, corporations, ethnic
groups, and even nations. The tools of our cohesion include
ridicule, rejection, snobbery, self-righteousness, assault,
torture, and death by stoning, lethal injection, or the noose."

It sounds grim, but Bloom is optimistic that "the more we can play
out our necessary contests civilly, the closer we will come to
turning spears to pruning hooks and swords to plowshares--purging
the global brain at last of blood and butchery." How? "If each of
us contributes one small step to this long march of history, we
will finally achieve what no god but the will within us can
bequeath--a peaceful destiny."

This is a warm sentiment, but I have two serious reservations
about Global Brain. First, Bloom has gone metaphor-mad, making me
wonder if a correspondence to reality actually exists. Would the
theory stand without the metaphor? As T. Wilson warned in his 1553
book on rhetoric: "A metaphor is an alteration of a woorde from
the proper and naturall meanynge, to that whiche is not proper,
and yet agreeth therunto, by some lykenes that appeareth to be in
it." I wonder if this is all nothing more than a likeness. Second,
a theory that explains everything explains nothing. This grand
theory is only part of Bloom's own self-created scientific
discipline--"paleopsychology"--which, he says, will "map out the
evolution of complexity, sociality, perception, and mentation from
the first 10(-32) second of the Big Bang to the present." Although
science traffics in generalizing from particulars, is it really
possible that life, the cosmos and everything can be explained by
a single, overarching idea? I'm skeptical.

Such mass, metaphor-making, interdisciplinary thinking is at the
heart of Bloom's weakness as a thinker; it is also, and
undeniably, his greatest strength. I am intrigued by the unique
intellectual style of Bloom, a one-time music magazine publisher
and rock promoter who has coupled his interest in social relations
with his background in science to generate a number of interesting
observations and deductions in Global Brain. Despite my
reservations, this is a clever book, meticulously researched,
beautifully written, and well worth reading, even if you don't buy
its thesis.

Michael Shermer is the publisher of Skeptic magazine and the
author of "Why People Believe Weird Things" and "How We Believe."
His latest book is "Denying History."

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/30/05 4:25 pm



Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:17 am
Profile Email YIM WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intelligent

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Michael Shermer on Howard Bloom's "Global Brain&quo
Quote:
Group selectionists, says Bloom, have their champion in none other than Charles Darwin, who argued that individuals can better pass on their DNA by being members of a group,
this is the worst kind of straw-man argument, and it is exactly the source of my distaste for Bloom. OF COURSE individuals can pass their DNA on better by being members of a group; otherwise there would not be metazoans. Individuals are served by being members of groups... no group selection required. And by the way, neither DNA nor its function had been discovered at the time of Darwin's death.
Quote:
The bridge between individual and group selectionists, says Bloom, is to be found in a metaphor created by the chaos and complexity theorists at the Santa Fe Institute--the complex adaptive system (CAS).
and as I have posted elsewhere, the leader of the Santa Fe institute, Stuart Kauffman, is very clear that group selection is a fallacy, and that real biology has to be explained, ultimately, in terms of individuals. Memes and Groups

Thanks for sharing Shermer's comments. I don't always agree with him but always find him worth reading.

Edited by: Jeremy1952 at: 1/1/03 11:57:02 am



Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:50 pm
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Permanent Ink Finger


Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Michael Shermer on Howard Bloom's "Global Brain&
Quote:
this is the worst kind of straw-man argument, and it is exactly the source of my distaste for Bloom.

Then your distaste is ill-founded, Bloom should be condemned if at all by his own words not by Shermer's.

I don't know which bit of Bloom Shermer is basing his observations on, but Bloom does claim the support of Darwin on page 8/9 of Global Brain.
He does so by quoting Darwin, and it certainly sounds from the quote like Darwing is supporting group selection.
There is in this passage no mention either by Darwin (naturally) or by Bloom of DNA.

Quote:
and as I have posted elsewhere, the leader of the Santa Fe institute, Stuart Kauffman, is very clear that group selection is a fallacy


Which doesn't in fact establish that Bloom is wrong in thinking complexity theory a bridge, it at best establishes that Kauffmann disagrees with him.

Quote:
and that real biology has to be explained, ultimately, in terms of individuals.


Surely anything beginning "real biology has to be explained" cannot be a scientific theory (let alone a fact).
It can only be a methodological dogma.




Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:00 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intelligent

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Michael Shermer on Howard Bloom's "Global Brain&
Quote:
Surely anything beginning "real biology has to be explained" cannot be a scientific theory (let alone a fact). It can only be a methodological dogma.
None of the above. Some things are so basic that they are apparent and necessary. It doesn't take an experiment, hypothesis, or theory to demonstrate that it is individuals that live and die.




Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:17 am
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Permanent Ink Finger


Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Michael Shermer on Howard Bloom's "Global Brain&
Individuals live or die, sure enough.
(Well actually, they all die, there's not much to chose between them on that count.)

But tribes, nations, species, and many other groups also prosper or perish.

Surely you don't imagine that the group selection debate has arisen because some people don't know that individuals live or die?




Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:43 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intelligent

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Group Selection?
Quote:
Surely you don't imagine that the group selection debate has arisen because some people don't know that individuals live or die?
Perhaps I misunderstand what is meant by "group selection", but as I have seen it explained by opponents and proponents (including Dr. Bloom), it always comes down to either some unexplainable, mystical force or the issue is ignored completely. Bloom posits some un-named "creative force" driving the universe toward life and more life; despite his avowed atheism, the word for this in English is "god".

Once groups are formed, it is not at issue that they can be selected. The fallacy in group selection is the assertion that this is in some way molding organisms in an alternative to real natural selection. Before a group can be biologically different, the individuals within that group have to be different. It does not, can not, exist independently of its members.

A group of human beings (or other communicating animals) can change culturally, such that the result is a group with different cultural attitudes and methods than another group. And because of the nature of learning, these cultural differences are Lamarckian and can spread through an adult population. But still, before you can select for the meme "Allah is great", you have to have individuals infected with that meme.




Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:40 am
Profile Email WWW
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Agrees that Reading is Fundamental

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 283
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male

Post Re: Group Selection?
It's interesting to note that the evolution of metazoans was responsible for the evolution of death. Multicellular organisms, with specialization in their "jobs", die. Single celled organisms replicate and divide before this, and so they avoid dying.

Individuals power evolution, there's no doubt about that. But after a number of centuries living in groups, you've effectively evolved to be a group organism. Without the group, you're not going to succeed and effectively pass your genetic material on. I don't see why group evolution can't help explain the overall methods of species evolution, so long as it's not taken to an extreme.

Very little in science is an either/or situation, in terms of processes.




Sun Jan 05, 2003 3:44 pm
Profile YIM WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Permanent Ink Finger


Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Group Selection?
You havn't really said much there against group selection that I greatly disagree with, so I think we have failed so far to locate the nature of the dispute.

I think its about how we explain the appearance of some (hereditary) characteristic.
I think genetic reductionists like Dawkins think that the explanation has to be an explanation of how possession of that characteristic improves the reproductive success of the individual who possesses it.

I am a "group selectionist" because I believe that often the best explanation may be that the characteristic is good for some group of which the individual is a member.

I don't myself deny that in some sense these things are probably reducible to the effects of the gene on the reproducive success of individuals, but like other kinds of "reduction in principle" (like the reducibility of the performance of my digestive system to string theory) it is in general totally unrealistic to expect an intelligible explanation in these terms.
One reason for this is that reproductive success is socially determined and the workings of society are very complex.
This is why the theory of complex adaptive systems has some relevence to the group selection issue.

Now, as to why this is important, you have only to look at "The Selfish Gene" which is (inter alia) an attack on the possibility of genuinely altruistic behaviour in the face of much plain evidence for it.
The general tenor here is that unless some putative altruistic behaviour can be explained in terms of how it enables the genes which produce it to proliferate in the gene pool then it can't be possible.

What Howard's book does is to marshall evidence that genetically we are highly predisposed to culturally determined behaviour and that attempts to provide genetic accounts of why people do what they do are ill-conceived.
Failure of an attempt to explain something at an individual selection level is just that, a failure to comprehend an extremely complex system, it can never serve to disprove the possibility of a particular behaviour, and should not be used to justify the re-labelling of good behaviour as self-serving.




Sun Jan 05, 2003 3:57 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intelligent

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Group Selection?
xilog:
Quote:
I think genetic reductionists like Dawkins think that the explanation has to be an explanation of how possession of that characteristic improves the reproductive success of the individual who possesses it. I am a "group selectionist" because I believe that often the best explanation may be that the characteristic is good for some group of which the individual is a member.
If the group does better, the individuals in the group do better. Dawkins explains at some length the mechanism by which this happens. Instead of considering what you think (incorrectly) that Dawkins might have said, read the book.
Quote:
I don't myself deny that in some sense these things are probably reducible to the effects of the gene on the reproducive success of individuals, but like other kinds of "reduction in principle" (like the reducibility of the performance of my digestive system to string theory) it is in general totally unrealistic to expect an intelligible explanation in these terms.
On the other hand, if you posit a hypothesis concerning the workings of your digestive system that violates the laws of physics, it doesn't take much insight to know that it is wrong. Digestive systems follow the laws of survival, and the laws of ontogeny, and the laws of chemistry, and the laws of physics, all the way down.
Quote:
"The Selfish Gene" which is (inter alia) an attack on the possibility of genuinely altruistic behaviour
"Genuinely altruistic" is meaningless. "Altruistic" has a specific, technical meaning in the literature of biology, and behaviour which meets those criteria is "altruistic", no adjective required. And Selfish Gene/Extended Phenotype are not attacks on anything, they are explanations of the very things we are talking about



Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:17 pm
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Permanent Ink Finger


Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Group Selection?
Quote:
If the group does better, the individuals in the group do better.


Not necessarily. Do you really need me to cite countexamples to this thesis?

Quote:
Instead of considering what you think (incorrectly) that Dawkins might have said, read the book.


I have read the book.
Its not clear to me in what way you think I have mis-represented Dawkins, could you spell that out for me?

Quote:
On the other hand, if you posit a hypothesis concerning the workings of your digestive system that violates the laws of physics, it doesn't take much insight to know that it is wrong. Digestive systems follow the laws of survival, and the laws of ontogeny, and the laws of chemistry, and the laws of physics, all the way down.


But the issue is not about whether the behaviour of my digestive system is determined by string theory.
It is about whether string theory can be used to make useful predictions about the behaviour of my digestive system, or can figure helpfully in an explanation of that behaviour.
When last I read about it, string theory was so complex and obscure that we were still thought to be decades away from the moment when theorists would come up with any testable consequences of string theory.

Quote:
"Genuinely altruistic" is meaningless.


No it isn't.
It's perfectly good and intelligible English, and some such locution is pretty essential in discussing "The Selfish Gene", not least because Dawkins himself thinks that the distinction between "true altruism" and "apparent altruism" is important (his words not mine).

Quote:
"good" is an ethical judgment, outside the scope of scientific inquiry.


"altruistic" would have done in the context, even in the special scientific usage you have mentioned.
However, my objection to Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene" is both that his conclusions are scientifically unsound and that the work is morally objectionable.
I don't confine myself to objective scientific remarks.




Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:08 am
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intelligent

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Group Selection?
Xilog
Quote:
Its not clear to me in what way you think I have mis-represented Dawkins, could you spell that out for me?
Dawkins says, (paraphrasing), "Genes are bits of chemicals, that can do nothing but reproduce as fast and as far as possible", and you say, "Dawkins is wrong, humans are not selfish".
Quote:
However, my objection to Dawkins in "The Selfish Gene" is both that his conclusions are scientifically unsound and that the work is morally objectionable.
I guess that's as good a place as any to end the discussion... I find your position reprehensible, and taken further, this will likely deteriorate into a mudfest.




Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:00 pm
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Intelligent

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 554
Location: Saint Louis
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Group Selection?
Timothy Schoonover
Quote:
Ok, that helps Jeremy thanks. Do you think you, or anyone really, could put this in some sort of a thesis statement? I tried and just don't have the background in this to do it justice. Again, I would really appreciate this.
Not me. . . I don't think it HAS one; in fact, it is quite utter nonsense; it is a bandwagon that people ignorant of biology jump on. "Group Selection" is to biology as "New Age" is to religion.




Mon Jan 13, 2003 7:59 am
Profile Email WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Permanent Ink Finger


Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Group Selection?
For the record, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Biology group selection is:
Quote:
A mechanism originally proposed to account for the evolution of
altruism in social groups of animals. It was suggested by the British
ethologist V. C. Wynne-Edwards (1906-97) in 1962, and arose from his
observations that individual animals often expose themselves to danger
(for instance by warning of predators) or forego reproduction (as with
worker bees in a colony) for the greater good of the group as a whole.
Hence, groups containing altruistic individuals would have some
selective advantage over groups lacking such members. This conflicts
with Darwinian orthodoxy, which views natural selection as operating
strictly on individuals. Group selection has now been supplanted by the
theory of kin selection as an explanation of apparently altruistic acts.


However, for the purposes of a discussion of "Global Brain" I don't think we should take it that group selection has been supplanted by kin selection.
If anything, in Bloom the movement is in the opposite direction.

I recommend also to you the following interesting and brief survey of the history of the group selection debate:

The Troubled Past and Uncertain Future of Group Selectionism

Edited by: xilog at: 1/14/03 1:59:16 pm



Tue Jan 14, 2003 2:27 pm
Profile
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Sophomore


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 251
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post RE: Group Selection
Thank you xilog. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Edited by: Timothy Schoonover at: 1/15/03 6:31:03 pm



Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:56 pm
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Pulitzer Prize Finalist

Silver Contributor

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 488
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Highscores: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 13 times in 11 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: RE: Group Selection
"Groups do not have the range of heritable variation that would allow any significant contribution to evolution."

You keep saying that differences between human groups are trivial, but I think that is speculative as is my own opinion that there may be genetically significant differences we cannot perceive. Giraffes are still evolving, but no one can predict in what fashion because we cannot perceive the minute differences that are being selected.

The background for what I'm saying comes from Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors - A Search for Who We Are by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan. They note that humans are very adept at noticing minute differences between individuals, associating with those who are alike, and separating from those that are different. Human evolution would have proceeded most rapidly when groups evolve in isolation, concentrating adaptive improvements in that environment over time, and then on rare occasion spreading these genes by mating outside of the group.

That's why I think it's quite possible the gene pool is affected when one group slaughters another. But of course, we'll never know.




Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:43 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

Recent Posts 
Is evolutionary chance impossible?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:40 pm

Robert Tulip

How many languages ?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:26 pm

nakamuta

Have you ever read this fantastic book?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:23 pm

nakamuta

Did the man "Jesus" exist?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:10 pm

Robert Tulip

Trying to get the hang of this

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:41 pm

Suzanne

New member seeking to make friends

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:36 pm

Suzanne

Blindness by Jose Saramago for next discussion?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:07 pm

Suzanne

Can a scientist define Life?

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:45 am

johnson1010


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Support BookTalk.org 
If you appreciate BookTalk.org please consider donating a few dollars to help keep us online. See who supports us.
Make a donation
RECENT DONATIONS:
• giselle - $50 January
• nomsisa - $50 September
• giselle - $50 September

Featured Books

Recent Blogging 

The 12th Disciple and Poor Richard's Downtown Colorado Springs

The 12th Disciple is now being stocked at Poor Richard's Bookstore in Colorado Springs. We're happy to have the title at such a historic location in Colorado Springs. If… more

Posted: 13 days ago
by 12th disciple

...

For most of us, a very big part of our lives will be a dark place, we wont realize it. We live, we eat, we have some fun, we go to school, we sleep. But it will come the time, when… more

Posted: 13 days ago
by aracelip7

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 14 days ago
by drewdamato

There's an election this year?

The 12th Disciple's endorsement for a Presidential Candidate...we'll pass. If many haven't learned over the past several decades, centuries, and millennia, the gover… more

Posted: 21 days ago
by 12th disciple

New Books

So I've been looking for new books to read, but I haven't found any that have caught my attention lately. I want to try and venture out into a different genre, but I'… more

Posted: 26 days ago
by spazzymagee

Unethical Apple

For those who constantly gripe about jobs being sent overseas, focus your anger on this. Read about how one of the most profitable companies prided by American citizens offshores t… more

Posted: 28 days ago
by vetwriter

Role of the Individual Augmentee in the Military

An article of mine regarding the role of the Individual Augmentee in the military has been published on Blogging Authors. Read the article at:

http://bloggingauthors.com/bl… more

Posted: 30 days ago
by vetwriter

Hello world!

Welcome to BookTalk.org Blogs. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

See those links at the very top of the page? To get into your control panel for… more

Posted: 30 days ago
by mryan2930

A Second In Time

Its January 1945 and British, Commonwealth, US and POWs from various other nationalities are finally awaiting liberation from the various camps in Eastern Europe, where some of the… more

Posted: 31 days ago
by carolemct

Hiding The Details In The Fine Print Still Works

A good friend of mine recently received a pre-paid credit card. She went to pay for a $20.00 gas purchase only to later find out that over a $70.00 hold was placed on her card for… more

Posted: 32 days ago
by life is a business

There’s No Such Thing As A Blank Canvas In Life

While watching the bube tube (TV) this morning I stumbled on a motivational speaker saying “today marks a new year, you now have a blank canvas to work from.”

After hearing th… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by life is a business

Happy New Year!

The 12th Disciple wishes you and yours a Happy New Year. Many of us hope and pray that 2012 will bring better leadership in the government of the United States, better leadership i… more

Posted: 40 days ago
by 12th disciple

Does fiction have a role to play in educating people about real events?

The Cat & The Nightingale Saga, the docu drama version of The Weekend Trippers, also tells Rifleman Ted TaylorÂ’s story but in a slightly different way. It too tells of the… more

Posted: 41 days ago
by carolemct

Out With The Woe Is Me And in With The “Look At Me”

In 2011 I published my book; in the book I outlined 9 Key Principles to Prosperity (happiness).  Like many of you, I walked through 2011 with the Woe is me attitude. When… more

Posted: 41 days ago
by life is a business

Original Thoughts, Do They Exist Anymore?

More and more these days I see people using social media to quote what someone else has said. I see people posting their favorite rappers lyrics, lines from movies and what seems t… more

Posted: 43 days ago
by life is a business

14th December. Wednesday

IÂ’m down the school for the first time today. My friend visited two weeks ago and said it was chaos. They must have heard I was back because everything is tidy and orderly today… more

Posted: 49 days ago
by heledd

...

I'm quite positive that everyone who enters this site has the same thing in mind: fear of seeing a world without books, without literature. We see it everyday, more people qui… more

Posted: 50 days ago
by aracelip7

12 December, Monday

For once in my life I step off the plane at Banjul, and donÂ’t get a rush of elation. I went home to see my daughterÂ’s twins safely delivered. They are all well now, but IÂ’m goin… more

Posted: 53 days ago
by heledd

It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year...For Some.

The 12th Disciple is up and running. We have a page on Facebook if you'd like to come join us for updates and other miscellaneous debris.

Hanukkah runs from the 20th-28th. … more

Posted: 56 days ago
by 12th disciple

Handle Your Business!

Last weekend I witnessed a couple of family members literally fall apart at the seams because of a problem with a couple of their employees. They recently opened a group home, and … more

Posted: 57 days ago
by life is a business





BookTalk.org Chat Room 
Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat [0]

Chat Room Always Open!

Tell your friends when to meet you
in the BookTalk.org Chat Room.

Booktalk.org on Facebook 


If you enjoy business bestsellers and would like to expand your business knowledge check out the quality book summaries offered by the world's leading book summary company.




BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSBLOGSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Lost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2011. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank