Howard Bloom chat transcript from March 6th, 2003

Chris OConnor

connected: ezChat version 0.50
howbloom:: the lord of the rings trilogy
howbloom:: hi, chris
Chris OConnor:: Hello folks
Jeremy1952 joined
howbloom:: hi jeremy
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, great timing for it, with looming war etc.
Chris OConnor:: Hey Howard!
howbloom:: i have about 30 books in the computer
Jeremy1952:: Hi Dr. Bloom
Jeremy1952:: welcome back!
Chris OConnor:: Howard - were you watching Bush talk the past hour?
howbloom:: one of them is "Hit In The Head By Heavy Metal"
howbloom:: no, what did he say?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was proud of bush today, he only said "nuclear" a few times
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: er...nucular
howbloom:: nuculur
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, that one
howbloom:: so what did he say?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - he is giving a speech about why we need to disarm Iraq - preparing for war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he's such a Pygmalion
Chris OConnor:: I am totally in support of Bush
howbloom:: ok, so how do you guys feel
Sephirah Geburah:: When do you plan on having "Hit in the head by heavy metal" available to the masses?! I would love nothing more than to read your wisdom on music!
Jeremy1952:: I'm guessing he said, we're gonna have a war, and you can't stop me, neener neener neener
howbloom:: about the elephant in the room
howbloom:: the war
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I feel that if we don't address this problem we will pay for it dearly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm hoping it goes perfectly and the Iraqis love us
pctacitus:: it's a risk, but it may pay off in the long run
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect it's gonna be a bit messier
howbloom:: do you want the bloomean view?
Jeremy1952:: I think it is essentially a holy war;
pctacitus:: yes
Chris OConnor:: Howard - please....yes
Jeremy1952:: I think bush is reintroducing...
howbloom:: this is a necessary war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I might not be so worried if someone other than a fundamentalist Christian were in office
Jeremy1952:: but I'll wait
pctacitus:: how so?
howbloom:: we have three choices ahead of us
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I think it is too
howbloom:: a pax americana
howbloom:: a world ruled by America
howbloom:: a pax sinica
howbloom:: a world ruled by china
howbloom:: or a mad max nightmare
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mean a world run by multinational corporations through america
howbloom:: the possible end of the human race
howbloom:: whatever
pctacitus:: I'll take option #1
howbloom:: that's another issue
howbloom:: and an important one
Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats what I fear....an end to the human species
Jeremy1952:: I'm all for rule by america... by an ethical, moral america
howbloom:: in three to five years some of the most insane people in the world
Jeremy1952:: I dont' think its another issue at all
Chris OConnor:: Howard - a regression to the Dark Ages or worse
howbloom:: will have nuculur weapons
Johnny Neuron joined
howbloom:: jeremy, it's an important issue that we can discuss
Chris OConnor:: hey brad - welcome
Jeremy1952:: The issue is, what are we becoming, in persuit of elusive "safety"?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I fear the mythology of End Times will influence Bush to refuse to help the peace process in Israel. Anyone who signs a peace treaty there is the antichrist according to a large number of Bush supporters.
Jeremy1952:: The principles of cooperation.... we are a Defector with a capital D.
howbloom:: yes, one of the bloom books that's been waiting in the computer since 1985 is called
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: why would those people be deterred by us imposing regime change on one country though?
howbloom:: the return of the middle ages
pctacitus:: tell us about it
Jeremy1952:: The norms of civilization do not inculde atacking foreign countries
howbloom:: hang on while I read what you've all said, there's more on why this is a necessary war
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they do now, jer
Jeremy1952:: Yes.. return to the middle ages... and Bush is leading the charge
howbloom:: we can't just impose regime change
Jeremy1952:: All this jibber jabber about god in every speach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's christian hubris frightens me...it's not just the hawkishness, it's the "God on our side" thing.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow
howbloom:: here's how the evolution of ever larger social forms of organization work
howbloom:: they come together ironically on the basis of a monopoly of force
howbloom:: the nation state for example
howbloom:: originally evolved
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: because of a new megaweapon
howbloom:: the cannon
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how about a new organism transcending nations?
howbloom:: and because monarchs were able to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel like I belong to something multinational and organic
howbloom:: monopolize cannonry
Chris OConnor:: How could they do that?
howbloom:: as a consequence the kings could batter down the previously impregnable walls
cinnamon321 joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you monopolize bioweapons?
Jeremy1952:: That's part of it. But nation states are inherently more productive than their predescessors
howbloom:: of nobles who had their own private armies
Jeremy1952:: I think the weapons follow the organization, not the other way 'round
howbloom:: monopoly of power led to a larger peace
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you must read like a maniac to be so well educated in so many subjects. I suggest you join BookTalk
Chris OConnor:: Hey cinnamon
cinnamon321:: hi
howbloom:: lemme continue
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: it's a long thought
Chris OConnor:: ok
howbloom:: we're where Europe was in 1905
howbloom:: the Kaiser was working like hell
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I suspect centralization of power will break down at some point and an emergent, transcendent "species identity" will come up
howbloom:: to take the huge economic power his country had built up
howbloom:: and turn it into weaponry that would allow him to outdo
howbloom:: the empire-making machinery
howbloom:: he'd seen at the age of four
howbloom:: when he went to visit his grandmother
howbloom:: queen victoria
Sephirah Geburah:: Howard - With all your jaw dropping credentials, have you ever considered joining any sort of position in government so you can change the beast from the inside?
howbloom:: but his weaponry would be more advanced
howbloom:: than what grandma had
Chris OConnor:: Good question Sephirah
howbloom:: because his nation was sprinitng ahead
Sephirah Geburah::
howbloom:: the bottom line is this
howbloom:: if Europe had flattened a bit of Germany in 1905
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd rather be a musician than a politician. People respect musicians
howbloom:: the war that entailed would have been over in six months
howbloom:: instead, there were peace movements
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: is that an argument for overkill though?
howbloom:: cries for negotiatiation
howbloom:: and when the war came, it lasted what seemed like forever
Chris OConnor:: yes, it sure did
Jeremy1952:: Howard, when iraq left its borders, it was squashed like a bug
howbloom:: instead of losing 200,000 lives--a terrible, terrible thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in hindsight, killing hitler at birth would have been a moral act...
howbloom:: the world lost over 20 million
Jeremy1952:: And if it tries "empire buliding" again, it will be squashed again.
howbloom:: over 19 million lives could have been saved
howbloom:: if there had been a preemptive war
Jeremy1952:: There is no question that Hitler should not have been appeased, when he began to attack.
howbloom:: the same thing came up in 1936
Jeremy1952:: I don't want to live in a world of "preemptive wars", howard.
howbloom:: when Hitler took over Czechoslovakia
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry that we're going to apply "brute force" to a problem requiring finesse
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I see your logic...what you are calling for takes strength and foresight
howbloom:: the world cried out for diplomacy
howbloom:: for peace
Jeremy1952:: It is the meta-norms of civilzation that ultimately improve humanity
ZombieHatesYou joined
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zombie
howbloom:: for salving germany's wounds, addressing its legitimate concerns
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, game theory gets complex here..it might not work to apply lessons from the past in a linear way to the present...
howbloom:: in 1936 hitler was bluffing
pctacitus:: This is basic game theory for politics
howbloom:: he didn't have the militar force to back up his deeds
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'm sure there are similarities
ZombieHatesYou:: Hey
howbloom:: he had, instead, pacifists and peace movements
howbloom:: and a propaganda machine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't see this as nazi germany...it's more like a tentacled monster
howbloom:: if the west had taken him on
pctacitus:: but there's always someone irrational who wants war
Jeremy1952:: Exactly. And by running "god" up his flagpole, Bush is defecting from the game
howbloom:: in 1936 it would have been a two month war
ZachSylvanus joined
howbloom:: instead it was a war that killed over 20 million
ZachSylvanus:: sorry I'm late
pctacitus:: even though you gain more from peaceful cooperation
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: do you think we'll have to bomb north korea too?
Jeremy1952:: So, who else attacks whom, once we open the floodgates?
howbloom:: preemptive war, that hateful phrase
Chris OConnor:: Pctactitus - True, but this war doesn't seem to be such a wat
Chris OConnor:: Hey Zach
howbloom:: once again could have saved tens of millions of lives
howbloom:: this time around it won't be so easy
Jeremy1952:: You have just justified attackign anyone you think is really reaaly bad... which means that the arabs are entirley justified
howbloom:: the weapons will be nuclear
Jeremy1952:: in attacking the US and isreael, right?
howbloom:: they already are
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our morale will be greatly damaged if we do things in the wrong way...it's not just power that is a factor, it's what forms of power we can accept using with a clean conscience
pctacitus:: This war resembles what Phillip Bobbit calls the Long War
Chris OConnor:: Yes, I'd like your opinion on N. Korea...I am rather comfortable in our ability to deal with Iraq.
Jeremy1952:: Becuase they think we are really really bad...
howbloom:: someone has to assert a primacy, a monopoly of power
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: to me, it's like a cancer. You can't cut out the tumor...you have to use something subtl
howbloom:: or we will have nuclear weapons hurled at us from Pakistan, from
howbloom:: Libya, from
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: saddam is more like a tumor, but al qaeda is something else
pctacitus:: it will keep going until all opposing ideas are crushed completely
howbloom:: Korea
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but how does asserting power prevent anything?
howbloom:: and enough nuclear weapons being tossed around in the Mediterranean area
NaddiaAoC joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if biological weapons become cheap and available to groups without states?
Jeremy1952:: Yes. Bush had skilllfully distracted milllions from the fact that he is powerless against the real enemy
Chris OConnor:: Someone has to play the role of the Alpha male...in the pecking order
howbloom:: to wipe out humanity
NaddiaAoC:: Hi folks
howbloom:: yes
Chris OConnor:: Hey Cheryl
howbloom:: the alpha male is the key to social peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I see everyone reacting to an apocalyptic fantasy and accelerating it in the process
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I think I'm in agreement with you
Jeremy1952:: So do what israel did... we have intelligence that they are building a breeder reactor? Bomb the damn thing
howbloom:: and he uses force and persuasion and caring to win his place
howbloom:: another example, two
Sephirah Geburah:: Oh! Michaelangelo.. Excellent last comment...
Jeremy1952:: Ah, persuasion. Now that would be nice
howbloom:: to assert his primacy, Alexander the Great utterly destroyed a city or two
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so do you think the US, by playing alpha male, can inspire Arab alpha males to suppress terrorism in their own countries?
howbloom:: it was hateful
howbloom:: morally disgusting
Chris OConnor:: Howard - But the Alpha male must have a well-defined code of ethics
howbloom:: but it worked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there was a movie about the president destroying Baghdad to send a signal
howbloom:: and Pericles ushered in the Golden Age of Athens with an atrocity
Jeremy1952:: We already destroyed "a city or two", Howard.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I'm not sure we'd be safe after that. States would avoid using nukes...but individual groups?
pctacitus:: Deterrence, good flick
howbloom:: flattening a city that tried to wiggle out of the Athenian league
Jeremy1952:: Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it might split the american culture in half
howbloom:: now we have to do that not because
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and cause a civil war here
Jeremy1952:: The firebombing of Dresden?
howbloom:: Iraq is a huge menace, it's not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think if we used nukes against a city, it would split our society down the middle
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I think what Howard believes is that we must behave like the lead dog and demand our way...and self police our behaviors
howbloom:: but because we have to do something that sounds childish and stupic
howbloom:: stupid
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I understand the theory
howbloom:: we have to set an example
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's something I've thought about before
howbloom:: an example Kim Jung Il
howbloom:: will pay attention to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we have to be the craziest nigga on the block.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - this is true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the theory
howbloom:: an example Osama will pay attention to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how does this work in the inner city though?
howbloom:: that Quaddafi will pay attention to
Jeremy1952:: Oh yea, Osama's paying attention.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...he is scaring the hell out of me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the math might be similar, use power in gangs as a model
howbloom:: the messagi is this--disarm or we will disarm you
Jeremy1952:: Like the attack on Afghanistan made him stop, right?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we can't find you and you're suicidal?
howbloom:: ok, I have been so busy typing I haven't been able to read
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - they forced him to run...they have disempowered him to a degree
ZachSylvanus:: I'm tempted to think that we don't have much to worry about from Korea, because of China
Jeremy1952:: And the message to ther rest of the world is: we can no longer be trusted to play by the rules
howbloom:: give me two minutes to read what you've said, ok?
Sephirah Geburah:: Everybody take 2!! Go get a soda or some water!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sure
pctacitus:: ok
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - sounds good
Chris OConnor:: This will make an awesome tran*****
Chris OConnor:: LOL Sephirah
Sephirah Geburah::
pctacitus:: a little disjointed though
Jeremy1952:: We responded to his attack; we took out ten of his people for every one of ours
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: When you're done reading, I'll share a flash poem I made with words from Global Brain...you have the flash plugin?
Chris OConnor:: I am very afraid of N. Korea right now.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - OMG
Glory Matthews joined
ZachSylvanus:: I don't believe China will allow N. Korea to do anything drastic
Jeremy1952:: Idont' think he will learn a single thing from the US attacking a soverign nation, except maybe that he was right
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I've decided to be afraid of everything. It seems prudent
howbloom:: i'm afraid of korea too
Chris OConnor:: Hey Glory - you're late. Please stand in the corner for 30 minutes. Thanks.
howbloom:: yes thye poem, i do have flash
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: www.soulaquarium.net/art/bloom/
Johnny Neuron:: My take is North Korea is just saber-rattling
Chris OConnor:: N. Korea is behaving irrationally...without provocation
Chris OConnor:: Johnny - I sure hope
pctacitus:: game theory again
Johnny Neuron:: They don't want to be blasted to the stone age
Glory Matthews:: Chris, pfffft! You should be honored, I just got back from the hospital.
Jeremy1952:: Without provoction? I hardly think so
ZachSylvanus:: Without provocation?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: read the other day that Daniel Ellsberg was a game theorist when he worked at RAND
Jeremy1952:: First of all, we promised not to demonize his country
Jeremy1952:: then asshole Bush comes out with the "axis of evil" slap in the face
Chris OConnor:: Michael - very cool!
ZachSylvanus:: The agreement was, they shut down their nuclear reactors, we send them fuel.
ZachSylvanus:: We stopped sending them fuel
howbloom:: who made that poem--ah
howbloom:: michael
Jeremy1952:: Then we prepare for a war of agression against iraq; what are the other nations
ZombieHatesYou:: That was very cool, Huahua.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's my fault
ZombieHatesYou:: Err...Michael.
howbloom:: it is, excuse my language, utterly fucking gorgeous
howbloom:: m8i
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb
ZombieHatesYou::
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks howard
Jeremy1952:: who we , rather bush, deliberately insults supposed to make of that?
howbloom:: michael, what do you do for a lving?
Johnny Neuron:: Jeremy: true, but I think NK has gone a little farther than Bush in terms of propaganda
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a budding web designer
howbloom:: I want to do more things like that myself
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, this is what triggered the N. Koreans to do what they're doing...but it is irrational. Bush had no idea they would act so crazy
howbloom:: I've turned the whole history of the cosmos into poetry
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: waiting for my girlfriend to move here from sydney so we can start a business
Chris OConnor:: LOL Bloom
Jeremy1952:: Law of unindtended consequences
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--I'd be happy to help you out with flash
pctacitus:: NK is more like Sparta
Jeremy1952:: A good reason to be cautious
pctacitus:: closed off
howbloom:: severall musicians are talking about making it into music--Joan Jett and David Was
Johnny Neuron:: NK has a very long history of doing this sort of thing
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: my email is on my site if you ever want to contact me
Jeremy1952:: How , by the way, are they acting crazy?
howbloom:: and I want to do a Big Bang Tango stage show
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see what you're talking about howard
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - hind sight is always 20/20
howbloom:: what you've done, michael, is a step in that direction
howbloom:: a very powerful step
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sounds interesting...it reminds me of a book I read a while back, but I forgot the title
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thank you
howbloom:: have you seen, no of course you haven't its private
Jeremy1952:: We are threatening Iraq; we put NK and iraq in the same cateogory; they are preparing an nuclear defense
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the sort of thing I'd like to do more of
Jeremy1952:: against a nuclear power that has gone mad.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: well then
Johnny Neuron:: Is it defense or provocation?
Jeremy1952:: It is the U.S. that is acting "crazy"
howbloom:: howardbloom.net/attraction_repulsion
howbloom:: ?
Chris OConnor:: To those that don't know, Howard Bloom is famous in the music industry and worked with Rolling Stone magazine and stars like Prince and Michael Jackson
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, it worked this time
Johnny Neuron:: Sending missles over the ocean on the day of the S Korean presidential inauguration
ZachSylvanus:: The thing that concerns me most about this series of wars on evil is the patriot acts
Johnny Neuron:: Virtually shooting down our fighter jet
howbloom:: well, I was often in the offices of Rolling Stone but I didn't work for the magazine
Chris OConnor:: Zach - explain
Jeremy1952:: Well, it isn't hindsight yet; the war hasn't started yet. Forsight: we are fucking up the world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I had an acid trip in my 20's that would have made a great movie. It had science rap as the sountrack

ZachSylvanus:: The patriot acts are ostensibly to protect our freedomS
ZachSylvanus:: And ourselves
howbloom:: our best alley right now in defending our freedoms from the patriot act
howbloom:: is a man who has bush by the balls
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - I disagree, but sure hope I'm not wrong.
howbloom:: Pat Robertson, my old nemesis
Chris OConnor:: Pat deserves to be in prison
ZachSylvanus:: The Patriot Act 2 involves overturning Katz vs.....the federal government, I thikn
Johnny Neuron:: Really Howard? How so?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: just tell people Ashcroft ordered a buttload of microchips

ZachSylvanus:: er, think
Sephirah Geburah:: - Howard - If you could give one piece of advice for someone seriously entering the music industry, what would it be?
Chris OConnor:: anyone who dumbs down the general population is a criminal
howbloom:: Pat Robertson made two key statements a month or two ago
howbloom:: one
Jeremy1952:: That's the other thing that scares the shit out of me; suppose we win the peace as well as the war... but have
howbloom:: look at the violence in the Koran, stop papering it over
pctacitus:: arrest all the teachers then
howbloom:: and two
Jeremy1952:: turned into a theocracy by then
cinnamon321:: I agree Chris.
NaddiaAoC:: Yeah, the general population is dumb enough.
howbloom:: our civil rights have never been in greater danger
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Yes, I am worried about that too
ZachSylvanus:: Howard, that's not really a viable argument
Johnny Neuron:: Look at all the violence in the Bible
Jeremy1952:: If we destroy our liberties to win a war, what have we won?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the bit of poetry at the end of your attraction page is verra nice
howbloom:: we must protect them for all we're worth
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon
howbloom:: yes, the bible is one of the most violent books around
ZachSylvanus:: We can't argue that they're evil because of their bible
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I very much agree
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want an army of mimes at my disposal
ZachSylvanus:: Ours isn't any better
pctacitus:: there is a book on the Battles of the Bible
cinnamon321:: The general population is ignorant, not stupi.
howbloom:: so is the founding story of western civilization--the Iliad and the Odyssey
Chris OConnor:: lol Michael
howbloom:: and so is the founding story of inida
howbloom:: the Mahavarata
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - I've only read some of both
pctacitus:: don't forget Hesiod Howard
howbloom:: all are filled with genocide
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you maintain control in a fluid chaotic system?
howbloom:: with the demonization of other human beings
Johnny Neuron:: Howard: how do you feel about the posturing the US is taking in relation to the other great powers such as Germany, France and Russia?
Chris OConnor:: Julian James posits that our species lacked consciousness at the time of both pieces
Jeremy1952:: I've found cascade works well, Michael
howbloom:: systems are hierarchical at every level of the cosmos
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I want to get at the root of projecting evil in all people...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jeremy--explain
howbloom:: animate and pre-animate
Chris OConnor:: yes
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm quite hestitant to call Pat Roberston an ally of mine. I think he's got other things moving him...Things I'd personally not want around me.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what cascade are we initiating exactly?
ZachSylvanus:: afk a few minutes....
howbloom:: and right now we need what some of you guys have said
Jeremy1952:: To control a chaotic fluid system. Pour in a little cascade.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the end-timers scare me in general
Chris OConnor:: what was that?
howbloom:: the craziest niggah on the block
Chris OConnor:: hmmm
howbloom:: the alpha male
Chris OConnor:: ahh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cascade bleach? lol
howbloom:: on a global basis
Chris OConnor:: explain Howard
howbloom:: so we can continue an incredible progress we've made
NaddiaAoC:: Me too, Michael.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when rock stars rule the world, we'll be fine
howbloom:: via cell phones and the www
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: politicians trying to be rock stars doesn't work for me
howbloom:: we are so global it's amazing
howbloom:: and we're about to become even more so
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I got a book called Smart Mobs...need to read that
Chris OConnor:: Howard - if we could conquer the barbarians our species could do incredible things...ohh..and also conquer mysticism
howbloom:: my friends who marched for peace a week ago
cinnamon321:: *laughs at the thought of a politician trying to be a rock star*
Jeremy1952:: Yea! David Bowie for president! Vote for Clinton 'cause he plays the sax
howbloom:: were amazed and exalted
howbloom:: by the fact that they were marching simultaneously in 60 cities
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon, they DO. Politicians use PR consultants who study what makes entertainers popular...then they apply that to themselves.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - mob mentality
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nodding at howard
howbloom:: they were living off the fruit that hierarchical violence produces
howbloom:: peac
howbloom:: peace
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's the premise of Smart Mobs
howbloom:: relax the hierarchy too greatly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: groups organizing spontaneously
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Jeremy
Chris OConnor:: Bloom - wow...excellent point
howbloom:: and we will have an end to cell phones the www electricity
howbloom:: social organization
cinnamon321:: Michael, I know, I was merely having a thought of the stereotypical poltician in kiss garb singing.
howbloom:: stores and groceries
howbloom:: let me tell you the worst case scenario
howbloom:: or one of them
pctacitus:: ok
howbloom:: oki?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I was wondering for a while if the species has some kind of spontaneous organizing program that causes a breaking open of the tribal identity and a larger sense of family
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: ok
howbloom:: you are Osama
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol
ZombieHatesYou:: I knew Michael was Osama.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I'm in complete agreement. I'm a bit of a pessimist though...and fear we will never succeed in controlling the rampant idiocy of the masses. I feel our downfall is inevitable
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: no, don't go blowing anything up for me thanks
howbloom:: you know that you are building your stardom, your influence
howbloom:: via pr
ladyfractal joined
ladyfractal:: Good evening all!
howbloom:: and you know that the biggest pr stunt you've pulled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hi fractal

Johnny Neuron:: I tend to agree Chris
ZombieHatesYou:: Hey Frac
howbloom:: is the destruction of the world trade center
cinnamon321:: hey frac
howbloom:: ok?
pctacitus:: yes
howbloom:: following this?
pctacitus:: yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he wants a revolution in pakistan
Chris OConnor:: ok
ladyfractal:: Hey Michael! Hey Zombie.
Chris OConnor:: I'm with ya
howbloom:: your next step is this
Chris OConnor:: Hey Ladyfractal
Chris OConnor::
Jeremy1952:: Howard is expoinding "worst case scenario", fractal
ladyfractal:: Hi Chris.
howbloom:: nuke twelve major cities in the united states
ladyfractal:: thanks jeremy.
NaddiaAoC:: Hi Lady
howbloom:: basically eliminate the usa
Chris OConnor:: Howard - we would be in the Dark Ages overnight
howbloom:: turn it into a glowing wasteland to set an example
howbloom:: to show that you are Osama the Great
howbloom:: that God is all powerful
Chris OConnor:: And this "worst case scenario" is a very real possibility
pctacitus:: that would crash the world economy overnight
howbloom:: and that nonbeleievers should tremble at your feet
Chris OConnor:: pctactus - very true
Johnny Neuron:: Israeli newspapers reported this morning that Osama bin Laden has been captured
pctacitus:: kill tens of millions
howbloom:: you do not have to worry about nuclear fallout or nuclear winter
howbloom:: why?
Sephirah Geburah:: Ha! That could never happen! We where promised to have a missle defense shield! (hehe... Yes, im being sarcastic)
ladyfractal:: johnny: that hasn't been confirmed anyplace
Jeremy1952:: if he could have done it, he would have done it. No way he would have settled for jet fuel if he could have gotten hold of nukes
howbloom:: because you have Allah on your side
Johnny Neuron:: lady: true
howbloom:: and to quote one of Osama's alleys, this earth
Chris OConnor:: Johnny - Hmm...I'll believe that wheh I see his head on a stake
howbloom:: is a mere speck of dust in Allah's eye
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Alternatively: you are a fundamentalist Christian with the best of motives...things get sticky and you feel compelled to use a nuclear first strike...
howbloom:: it is expendable
pctacitus:: if you die you go to paradise anyway
howbloom:: next step
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as believe the right wing christians...God will give us a new earth
pctacitus:: right?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - You're making me want to read the Koran/Quran
howbloom:: in Islam these days the big subject of conversation is the reconquest of Europe
Chris OConnor:: ...just to understand
howbloom:: you see, God promised that Islam would triumph
howbloom:: in two major places
Jeremy1952:: Yea, the difference, as Michael implied, is that Bush actually has nukes
ladyfractal:: howard-- how dangerous do you think it is that all three monotheistic faiths seem to be driving all-out for war and *at least* two of those three have nukes?
howbloom:: Constantinople and Rome
Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the Koran clearly states that conquest of infidels is Islams destiny
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: book religions really poisoned the planet...I keep telling them it's idolatry...but they just...don't...lisetn
AvatarofPower joined
Chris OConnor:: Avatar!
Chris OConnor:: Welcome
howbloom:: it took 700 years before the prediction about constantinople fell, but allah came through, right?
ladyfractal:: michael: no, of course not, they're too busy reading their holy books
AvatarofPower:: hiya chris
howbloom:: and now allah is bound to deliver Rome
howbloom:: which means all of Europe
howbloom:: nuke the us and
howbloom:: europe will capitulate
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this allah character needs therapy
DocNancy:: Howard, you need to write all this down and publish it.
howbloom:: it will beg for surivival
Jeremy1952:: Osama is one dangerous sonofabtich. Terrorists are an infection on the planet. No argument there... so
pctacitus:: we need to pull a St Jerome and we write the religious texts then
howbloom:: and be willing to live in justic and purity
howbloom:: according to god's law sharia
Jeremy1952:: we should be fighting terrorists, not picking a target we think we can hit, and ignoring the enemy.
howbloom:: and as part of an islamic imperium that's global
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: women will be forced to veil their nipples in public

(
Johnny Neuron:: Howard: not all Muslims would agree with these tactics
howbloom:: here's another important bit of Osama's thinking
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Girls Gone Wild will be a thing of the past...
Johnny Neuron:: Some are far more liberal and peaceful than that
howbloom:: nation states are a barbarous western creation
Johnny Neuron:: Dare I say most
howbloom:: god says that the umma is universal
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: empathy is universal
howbloom:: it is a continuous planet
howbloom:: a planet without boundaries
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it is a conscious planet
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - don't you think Saddam has something planned with his WoMD?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: osama is on to something
ladyfractal:: howard: Oh I see where this is going...which means a Pax Islam
howbloom:: living under God's own law
Jeremy1952:: Don't know, Chris.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: chris, a trapped animal will do some crazy things
howbloom:: national boundaries separating afghanistan, egypt, syria, malaysia, these are artificial slices
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm wondering if Bush is unconsciously trying to provoke attacks against us
howbloom:: designed to weakine the ummah
howbloom:: in other worlds osamo
Jeremy1952:: I think the message should be this: use one, try to use one, and you get slapped like a mosquito
Johnny Neuron:: I think the key might be for the US to allign with the more moderate side of the Muslim world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: use a nuke to kill a mosquito and you may face impeachment
howbloom:: osama's interpretation of Islam makes the world one global caliphate
howbloom:: Osama, the wireless warriot
pctacitus:: what moderate side?
Jeremy1952:: But the message that we attack regardless?
howbloom:: has a clear, clear vision
howbloom:: of a global new world order
pctacitus:: Where is it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I believe in a species unconscious program that will overrule the divisions of nations and religions...but whether that can stop destruction is another thing
pctacitus:: I haven't seen it.
Sephirah Geburah:: Damnit... Why in the hell cant we have people like Howard for President?!?!? (sigh)
Johnny Neuron:: There is definately a moderate portion of Muslims who are opposed to terrorism
howbloom:: so we have the choices of living under an islamic hegemony, one in which most of us here would be dead
Johnny Neuron:: I've talked with some of them
howbloom:: and pax amercana
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - Saddam is a sick bastard who has lined up his own people and gunned them down....and poisoneed them
Jeremy1952:: Oh my god, Sephirah, no way!
Johnny Neuron:: Some are US allies
howbloom:: or a pax sinica
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the limbic systems of the world are feeding back
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Sephirah
ladyfractal:: howard: Laid out like that, it certainly seems to be a very clear vision. I have a question for you...
Sephirah Geburah:: hehe
pctacitus:: like Saudi arabia?
howbloom:: and those of us who try to stop this war as we did in 1905
Jeremy1952:: Yes, Chris, this is true.
Jeremy1952:: And?
howbloom:: and in 1936
howbloom:: will have blood on our hands
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - we owe it to the Iraqi people to remove the tyrant
Jeremy1952:: Oh bullshit.
Johnny Neuron:: So you are for a war with Iraq Howard?
howbloom:: the blood of between 200 million and six billion human beings
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that's a moral inversion though...the ones who kill are heroes and the ones who don't kill are killers...
howbloom:: that's my speech, now let me read what you
howbloom:: 've been saying
ladyfractal:: howard: okay
Chris OConnor:: Ladyfractal - what was the question?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if we trigger something just as bad as what we're trying to avoid? we'll have blood on our hands then too
Jeremy1952:: There are dictators all over the world; we've defended much worse, time and again.
howbloom:: I know Jeremy is going to totally disagree
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: Are you saving this chat periodically?
Chris OConnor:: Micahel - should we freeze out of fear?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what if the lessons we're learning from history fail to work in a global system that approaches viscosity?
Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - yep, no worries
ladyfractal:: chris: well, my first question has to do with the three monotheistic religions, two of which are *confirmed* members of the nuclear club goign to war.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: linear thinking may not be the trick here
NaddiaAoC:: Ok good
howbloom:: To answer Johnny's question yes, bring on this war as rapidly as possible
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we may be playing chess on a Go board
howbloom:: despite the fact that I hate war
cinnamon321:: according to mass media reports i see that iraqis do not like saddams leadership, but since he is a dictator many of them fear to speak out unless they leave the country. perhaps if we do not go to war they will overthrow saddam themselves.

Johnny Neuron:: I agree
howbloom:: no killing of a single human being is justified
ZachSylvanus:: back, sorry
howbloom:: Saddam is a distraction, an example, that's all
Jeremy1952:: To say "war on iraq is good for iraqis" ignores the little detail of the 100,000 or more of them who will DIE in the war.
ladyfractal:: chris: My second question has to do with with people in the West not understanding that Islam is a *fundamentally* different culture/civilization and not one most of us would feel good living under.
Johnny Neuron:: But I feel that the US must do it's best to not make this a "war against Muslims"
DocNancy:: yes, but how does oil enter into all this, and it does.
Jeremy1952:: If they wanted to die, they could oppose Saddam themselves
ladyfractal:: chris: but I'll hold that one
Johnny Neuron:: Boundries must be set; demarcations made
howbloom:: hang on a second, let's discuss the iraqis who will di
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - the problem is every time a coup is attempted Saddam makes such an example of the perpetrators that the whole nation lives in mortal fear of even appearing to be anti-Saddam
ZombieHatesYou:: Perhaps I am not following this like I should be, but I'm not sure how bringing on the war with Iraq as fast as possible will in turn harm Osama's 'vision.'
howbloom:: saddam has deliberately put his weapons under schools and hospitals
howbloom:: one story out of England says that he hired
AvatarofPower:: Jeremy.... how could they possibly stand up to the current iraqi regime
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so will the arab world blame us for civilian deaths?

Edited by: Chris OConnor at: 6/7/05 1:47 pm

Chris OConnor

howbloom:: western experts to build a subjway system under baghdad and is using it to
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - But 100,000 dead now to save 4 million in the long run. I'm not saying I agree, but I think this is Howards point
ladyfractal:: michael: you *bet* they will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will the iraqis really be "dancing in the street"?
Jeremy1952:: Well, they can't. I'm not saying they should. I'm saying, they'll be just as dead if we kill them
howbloom:: shuttle his weapons of mass destruction around on trains
ZombieHatesYou:: Of course, Michael...We're the Big Bad Guy...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--but how accurate IS that math?
Johnny Neuron:: What are the chances of the US using nuclear weapons against Iraq?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: will we become the evil we fear? will our culture survive that?
AvatarofPower:: very, very, very, very slim, Johnny
howbloom:: a contact of mine in the State Department, an Islam expert who has spent most of his adult life in Islamic nations
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moral ambiguity broke a lot of heads open in the 60's
Jeremy1952:: The thing is, chris, the 100,000 dead now is almost a sure thing; the assertiion that less willdie in the long run
Chris OConnor:: Michael - Approximately 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot
howbloom:: says that the bomb shelter filled with civilians we devastated
cinnamon321:: lol Chris
Jeremy1952:: with the war than without it is extremely uncertain
howbloom:: was a cover for the bunkers below
ladyfractal:: johnny: depends upon whether or not the Iraqi military uses them on US troops and how serious teh casualties are from such an attack.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I worry about what our actions will do to our culture. The "culture wars" could become volatile.
howbloom:: can I throw in another fact about the ultimate Osama scenario?
pctacitus:: ok
Sephirah Geburah:: Yep!
howbloom:: which can happen with or without osama
Chris OConnor:: Please do
howbloom:: pakist
howbloom:: has the Islamic bomb
ladyfractal:: johnny: if the Iraqis use them and if there are high casualties, US doctrine dictates answering WoMD in kind
Chris OConnor:: Islamci bomb?
Chris OConnor:: Hmmm
howbloom:: the nuclear bomb all Islam feels is God's gift
Chris OConnor:: thats punny
howbloom:: to the Islamic world, not just to one country
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to arrest this God/Allah
howbloom:: Pakistan also has
howbloom:: three submarines
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I agree
howbloom:: very special submarines
NaddiaAoC:: Michael: I agree, but I think you'll have a problem finding big enough handcuffs.
ZachSylvanus:: What's your point?
howbloom:: stealth submarines, next generation submarines
Chris OConnor:: Nuke subs?
ladyfractal:: michael: would LOVE to go back and time and slap whoever thought up monotheism upside their foolish head
ZachSylvanus:: It's an arms race, Howard, you should know that
ZachSylvanus:: Keep up or fall behind
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you mentioned these scenarios before...I'm wondering what the rest of us chess pieces should be doing in the midst of this global chess/go game?
howbloom:: built with French technology
ZachSylvanus:: It's merely an evolution of civilizations
howbloom:: and it has the shipyard to build more
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: yeah, monotheists don't play well with others
ZachSylvanus:: Nobody wants to be the losing party, giving in to selection
howbloom:: these are missile carriers and pakistan also has
howbloom:: medium range ballistic missiles
howbloom:: now imagine that Osam is dead or arrested
Chris OConnor:: Howard - are you proposing we add Pakistan to the "Axis of Evil?"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: most of us won't be able to influence all this very much...but what kinds of things can we do with our little bit of the superorganism?
howbloom:: and you are a fierce Osama
Chris OConnor:: Ok
howbloom:: fan
howbloom:: a protege
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--they will after Musharraf gets assassinated
ladyfractal:: howard: are you saying that it is no longer a question of "if" but a question of "when" the united states has a city evaporated?
Jeremy1952:: (the very protege that the U.S. helped him recruit, but I digress)
howbloom:: you lead his wireless warriors in something that is likely to happen any day now
NaddiaAoC:: Monotheism is like King of the Hill. My God can beat up your god.
howbloom:: the overthrow of Pervez Musharref
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - you're right though
howbloom:: you now have three subs with 10,000 mile ranges
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: monotheism ate my homework
howbloom:: you can now nuke any city in America
NaddiaAoC:: LOL Michael
Johnny Neuron:: Forgive my skeptical ide: but this is the "ultimate" Osama scenario...not the likely scenario; Pakistan remains a strong US ally
howbloom:: either from the Atlantic coast
Chris OConnor:: 10k is long enough to hit anywhere from the oceans
howbloom:: or from the pacific coast
howbloom:: yes
ladyfractal:: johnny: strong is not the word that I think I would use
Chris OConnor:: 27k is world circ I believe
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I say we nuke our own cities in defiance.
Sephirah Geburah:: Michaelangelo! You bring up a great question of "What can we do" I suggest we base a long term forum discusion around that.... There are so many beautiful and powerful minds gathered on this website... We just need to establish some goals and focus...
Chris OConnor:: Michael - omg
howbloom:: and Osams says "we love death more than you love life"
Jeremy1952:: And I think it supports my side more than howards anyway... to show that other countries are dangerous; yes;
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree seph
howbloom:: you westerners are degenerates
Chris OConnor:: Howard - exactly...this scares the shit out of me
Johnny Neuron:: It was Pakistani officials that brought in the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks
howbloom:: you turn your women into prosititutes
Jeremy1952:: that is exactly why we have to play nice... why we have to promote cooperation
howbloom:: you let them parade their legs on the streets
howbloom:: and you are foolish
ladyfractal:: johnny: Musharref is playing a very cagey political game because he thinks it will A> keep him in power and B> give him some legs against the Indians
NaddiaAoC:: LMAO Michael. You're a nut!
howbloom:: you only have two or three children per family
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in the middle of all these worst case scenarios, I'd like to at least play some fun games with culture
howbloom:: we treat our women properly
Sephirah Geburah:: I feel so helpless as much as I care about these issues...
Chris OConnor:: Sephirah - you have the ability to create a thread about anything you want...and I think we would all like to discuss this further
ladyfractal:: johnny: But Pakistan is an ally of convenience
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we treat our women properly ?
howbloom:: we veil them and keep them in the home
cinnamon321:: IMHO the problem that people have is lack of exposure to other cultures. I think if more individuals were exposed to people of different cultures and had positive experiences we wouldn't have as many problems.
howbloom:: we free them from indecency
Johnny Neuron:: But an ally nonthesless
Chris OConnor:: (Now how do we get Howard to pop in once and awhile and post? hmmm)
ladyfractal:: howard; shouldn't that be "we treat women like *property*"
pctacitus:: The horror and the implacable nature of the Wars of Religion was not only that the soldiers on each side believed Heaven awaited them if they fell in battle, they also believed that they owed it to their adversaries to send them to hell. - Ernle Bradford, The Great Siege: Malta 1565
howbloom:: and we make them pregnant just as god wants them to be
Sephirah Geburah:: neat! I will do so
Jeremy1952:: Mabye it would be worse, cinnamon.
Sephirah Geburah:: hehe
AvatarofPower:: exactly Johnny... i think there's a serious differnece between the Islamic Fundamentalist world and the more moderate muslims
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard will be magnetically attracted to our group, he cannot resist
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I totally agree!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: he will be assimilated
howbloom:: so we have four wives with severn children each
Jeremy1952:: Maybe if the west new how fucked up islamic culture really is, there'd be more hate crimes
Johnny Neuron:: Avatar: Thank you!
Johnny Neuron:: A huge difference
howbloom:: and every mother who believes in Allah is willing to sacrifice three of her children
howbloom:: as martyrs for allah
Sephirah Geburah:: hehehehe and our western culture ISNT f*cked up?!
AvatarofPower:: BUT... that differernce has the potential to rapidly disappear
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, have you read any of DeMause's stuff?
Jeremy1952:: Yea, the moderates who hack children's vaginas up with dullknives
Johnny Neuron:: When we slip into the fundamentalist mindset, I worry
ladyfractal:: jeremy: that isn't going to happen suga'...most college educated Westerners have NO sense of what they are apart of or what they are tearing down
howbloom:: more than willing, she celibratses the victory of their death
ZombieHatesYou:: I think when we denounce such things as how the Muslims "treat their women," we are falling into the same trap that we are saying we despise about *them.*
howbloom:: so if we nuke you and you retaliate, it will be useless
cinnamon321:: Jeremy, Islamic culture is fucked up to us because we didnt grow up with it. American culture is fucked up to Muslims who know nothing about it.
AvatarofPower:: the moderates who hack childern's penises up, what?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I heard of an interesting program that connects Israelis and Palestinians by phone
howbloom:: wipe out afghanistan, we don't care
howbloom:: we can afford to lose 200 million to 400 million people
Jeremy1952:: The lovely arabs who murder rape victims and celebrate the rapists
ladyfractal:: jeremy: when you have college-educated Westerners, decrying the Enlightenment and saying that scientific rationalism is just *one* in a number of equally valid ways of viewing the world, you know we're in trouble
howbloom:: in order to assert god's will
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so we threaten to nuke mecca, right?
DocNancy left
howbloom:: and to do what he has ordered us to
Johnny Neuron:: Nuke Mecca? Come on
howbloom:: torture you and annihilate you
Jeremy1952:: I reject your relativism, cinnamon. there are specific actions which are wrong.
howbloom:: two words he has used in the Koran
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - good point
cinnamon321:: Not all Arabs do. There are more liberal Arabs in many places.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, some consultant close to Bush once talked about nuking mecca
howbloom:: any person who does not abide by those two words is a slacker
howbloom:: Allah will never forgive
howbloom:: allah demands that you fight and kill on his behalf
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send internet porn to the Islamic world and expose fundamentalist muslims who download it
howbloom:: those who stay behind and wiat
pctacitus:: such a kind deity
howbloom:: for the West to topple of its own might
ZachSylvanus:: No less kind than any deity of our own history
ZombieHatesYou:: So, I think I've got this now. This is a matter of God. They think they have God on their sides...that God will protect them. So they have no fear. Nothing we can do to them is going to deter them. Allah demands they kill the infidel...
howbloom:: will be damend and will never see the fruits of paradise
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the knights of the crusades killed to gain forgiveness
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will do anything to feel pure
Johnny Neuron:: But Howard...among all three great monotheisms you have your right wingers and your left wingers....the left wingers have always been in a minority
howbloom:: ok, now let me read your thoughts for a bit
cinnamon321:: I do agree that they way rape victims are treated in certain Middle Eastern areas is wrong, I just think a lot of Arabs probably think it is too.
howbloom:: i've been typing my fingers off
ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand the point you are making...but I have to say that I disagree with it. It *may* be utterly imperialist for me to believe that women have a right to self-determination, but I cannot back down off of that ideal.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: let's all convert to islam.
Sephirah Geburah:: I remember reading a sobering exerpt in the Lucifer Principle about the Islam culture, and the sleeping giant that it is... When do you believe this giant will wake up, stretch his arms, and get some breakfast?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: then we can assimilate them

ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: I'm not saying I agree with how they treat their women. I am just saying that denouncing that at every turn and insisting you are right...is the same thing they are doing.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: seph--when we appear weakened
Johnny Neuron:: I'm not ready to brandish the Muslim world, en toto, as extremists like Bin Laden
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I am very curious if you see in Christianity that same problems that you see in Islam...
ZombieHatesYou:: We are no better than they are. It's just our ass on the line, so we must fight for what *we* think is right.
howbloom:: the giant has awakened
AvatarofPower:: Sephirah, that giant is going to wake up and realize that maybe an arm, and a foot, and a few other parts are sick and tired of its bullshit, I think...
Chris OConnor:: Howard - or is it a matter of "degree?"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I woudln't brand Germans as evil...their culture just went through a crazy phase. Right now, the islamic cultures and our culture are both in a weird phase
ladyfractal:: zombie: Hmmm...perhaps.
Jeremy1952:: Of course we are better, Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm just trying to point out that while we believe they are wrong...they believe *we* are wrong. So how are we any better?
howbloom:: and is getting its srength day by day
ZombieHatesYou:: It's equal.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: our own fundamentalists may act up
Sephirah Geburah::

I hope Avatar
cinnamon321:: I agree Micheal
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: No. I don't think so.
Johnny Neuron:: Good point Michael
Jeremy1952:: Because they really ARE wrong, zombie.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - and the giant is Islam?
howbloom:: look, Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But they don't think they are wrong. Just like we don't think we are wrong. Do you see what I am getting at?
howbloom:: I can speak osama speak because within his framework of belief he is right
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make some muslim entertainers famous so nobody will want to see them die
howbloom:: he is not just right
howbloom:: he is courageous
Jeremy1952:: Yes, but you are wrong.
howbloom:: he is heroic
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.
howbloom:: he is probably the greatest idealist on this planet today
ladyfractal:: zombie: okay, I don't think its equal because they are, in fact, going against a principle of universal...truly universal...human rights. If I understand it correctly, MOST Islamic nations do not allow women to vote and do not see women as human enough to vote
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: inside osama is a screaming infant who wants his mommy to forgive hi8m
Jeremy1952:: The wholesale repression of women is wrong. It isn't relativist. It isn't negotiable.
howbloom:: he is willing to give up his life for what he believes in
ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Allah says that is the way it works.
ladyfractal:: zombie: Our culture went through it and our culture was *wrong* at that point.
cinnamon321:: Shakira is part Arabic, I think but everyone sees her as a Latina and she is marketed that way.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm willing to give up his life too
Jeremy1952:: One memeber of the species does not have the right to opress and kill the other gender
howbloom:: but if that means the death of free speech, equal rights for women, toleran, pluralism
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I do see your point.
howbloom:: cell phones
howbloom:: and computers for the masses
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: how do you kill cell phones?
Jeremy1952:: So: they think we are wrong for pluralism. We are right, and they are wrong.
howbloom:: then I am willing to make a moral jusgement
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: that cat's out of the bag
howbloom:: and defend the way of life I beieve in
howbloom:: period
Johnny Neuron:: So what is the solution Howard? Or IS there a solution?
Jeremy1952:: Oh shit, now me and howard are agreeing.
AvatarofPower:: hehe
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard, what would you say we ordinary folks can do collectively aside from cheering Bush on?
Chris OConnor:: LOL
ladyfractal:: zombie: I understand what you are saying...but I cannot be a relativist when it comes to issues like viewing women as full-human beings. I just cannot see how there is room to negotiate on that matter.
howbloom:: if i were living in Osama's world I would never be allowe to think and write
ZombieHatesYou:: I'm not saying I am against this war business. I just want people to recognize what it's really about.
Jeremy1952:: Actually at a deeper level I think we do pretty much agree... it is tactics, not objectivs, where we differ.
howbloom:: this discussion would not be happening
howbloom:: and none of us would be waht we are today
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the solution is for boundaries to dissolve and a great sacrifice to show humanity why it's impossible to impose boundaries on an emergent system
Jeremy1952:: Now wait just a minute, Michael.
howbloom:: trying with all our might to contribute through our discusions, our brainstorming and our disagreements
Johnny Neuron:: And compromise?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or just for people to organize and communicate across boundaries until they understand the Beast
howbloom:: the the betterment of humahnity
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you should come speak at the Atheist Alliance convention here in FL in april - Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins will be there. Your views on Islam would make for an incredible presentation
ZombieHatesYou:: Frac: Obviously I view women as 'full human beings.' You know me. I'm always blaring about something or another. And no, I do not agree with the way the Muslim women are treated. I just think it would be better all around if people realized that *everyone* thinks they are right when it comes to this stuff.
Jeremy1952:: Where would we be if protozoans hand't imposed boundaries on their genomes?
AvatarofPower:: its called a Unified Human Intelligence, Michael
ZachSylvanus:: Howard, need I remind you that in the Islamic world, it nurtured and advanced the learning of Greece and Rome for six hundred years, until our own culture forcefully took it from them?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think westerners and arabs need to communicate on a human level as well as a strategic level
ZombieHatesYou:: Whether they are *actually* right about the issue is neither here nor there.
ladyfractal:: zombie: Okay, I see your point
AvatarofPower:: and we're working on it...
ZombieHatesYou:: 'tay.
howbloom:: Chris--I was invited to one ateist symposium
howbloom:: but I
ladyfractal:: zombie: I'm sorry I thought you were arguing a slightly different point than the one you were making
Jeremy1952:: Zombie, we KNOW everyone thinks they are right. That's why it comes down to tactics. We need to WIN
Johnny Neuron:: Zach: these are different times, different interests
ZachSylvanus:: agreed
Chris OConnor:: Howard - they probably cannot afford you
Johnny Neuron:: different Muslims
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the boundaries dissolve inside so that you can understand how to prevent them from dissolving outside
howbloom:: ve been housebound with illness for fifteen years
howbloom:: and do all my appearances via video
howbloom:: or electronic means
Chris OConnor:: Howard - wow...I didn't know.
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: But while you are so hellbent on winning, do you see why they are so hellbent on winning?
Jeremy1952:: I'm not opposed to the war because it is morally wrong, I'm opposed because it is TACTICALLY wrong.
howbloom:: they were' up for that
ZachSylvanus:: It's not the religion that is against learning, etc., it's the leaders
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MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: reality is too slow, I like internet
ZombieHatesYou:: I never said this war was morally wrong.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I never meet anyone interesting offline
howbloom:: to address the issue of Moslems who disagree with Osama
ZachSylvanus:: Leaders that have taken power much like Germany and Hitler, because of the way in which the Islamic countries have developed
Jeremy1952:: I'm hellbent on winning BECAUSE they are hellbent on winning. If they were willing to live and let live, so would I!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: this war is morally ambiguous
howbloom:: in the Islamic world, as in Hitler's German world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those who can survive moral ambiguity without going insane will have something to offer
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay.
howbloom:: they are not allowed to speak their mind
Jeremy1952:: Nope, nope, I didn't mean to imply that you did, Zombie. That was more of a general statement
Chris OConnor:: Howard - if you have any interest in making a video presentation at this convention I would be happy to help you with it....I know the people in charge
AvatarofPower:: mich: exactly... the internet... universal computer networking is the key to that increase in communication that you're talking about
howbloom:: the leaders of moderate pluralist subcultures have been killed
ZachSylvanus:: I agree that if it comes down to it, I would rather see them paying the price than us, but I'd rather not think that we're at such a dead end as to be left with that as our only choice
howbloom:: nearly every writer who has gotten out of line has literally been murdered
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: 'tay. I know you think I'm wrong...but do you at least see my point, even if you don't agree with it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to send bullet proof vests to moderate islamic writers
howbloom:: my friends in Islam, the pluralists and moderists I meet with in this bedroom
Jeremy1952:: Yes
ZachSylvanus:: Much as those who spoke out against HItler
howbloom:: have no voice
pctacitus:: remember rushdie anyone?
howbloom:: no spokesmen
ZombieHatesYou:: That's all I really want....for people to see each other's points, even if we don't agree.
Jeremy1952:: Actually when you rephrased your position, I think I agreed.
ladyfractal:: zach; I'm not sure that we're *not* at that point...as far as I can tell, the Islamic facists are *not* interested in compromising with the West
AvatarofPower:: being able to link directly to a person's mind and thoughts breaks down all the barriers of WHAT a human is and brings forward WHO that human is
howbloom:: they are free to speak because they are here in America, not back home in Bangla Desh or Pakistan
howbloom:: we need to free them to speak
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I agree, Avatar
howbloom:: which is somithing I'm working on
Johnny Neuron left
ladyfractal:: howard: have you read Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we need to make them fall in love with us through media
ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Do you feel justified in compromising at the blade of a sword?
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Glory Matthews left
cinnamon321:: wb Johnny
ZachSylvanus:: Because essentially we're asking aquiescence with a knife at their throats
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Yes, MTV will bring them over.
AvatarofPower:: or at least understand us...
howbloom:: I agree with Huntington's idea
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we are the world's entertainers...
howbloom:: yes, this is the biggest choice point of history
Johnny Neuron left
howbloom:: any of us will see in our lives
Jeremy1952:: Well boys and girls, men and women, your honor, members of the jury; if I am to have ANY chance at sex tomorrow, I'd better
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe musicians need to have a video dialogue with Islam
ZachSylvanus:: It's a large choice point in history, but I wouldn't say the biggest
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Springsteen sings "Please don't kill us"
Jeremy1952:: go spend some time with my lovely wife, who is at this very moment feeling abandoned
ladyfractal:: zach: Perhaps...although I'm not sure.
howbloom:: if we mistreat it and make the wrong decisions we may well determine the fate of many generations down the line
Glory Matthews joined
AvatarofPower:: lol... enjoy yoursef, Jeremy
Sephirah Geburah:: Thanks for your time Jeremy! You are fun to read.
ZombieHatesYou:: 'Night, Jer.
ZachSylvanus:: It's the same choice every set of clashing cultures must make
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: night jer
Chris OConnor:: Night Jeremy
ZachSylvanus:: Night Jeremy
howbloom:: jeremy, g'night
Glory Matthews:: night Jer
cinnamon321:: night jer
Jeremy1952:: See y'all next time! Howard, thanks 1,000000 for coming back, in spite of nags like me
Jeremy1952:: : )
ladyfractal:: howard: I'm not sure I fully agreed with Huntington. although he invokes you at the end of his book, talking about how Westerners need to recognize that we are part of Western civilization
AvatarofPower:: true, zach... but its the biggest one *we'll* see
howbloom:: thank you, jer
Chris OConnor:: Howard - how often do you make video presentations?
Jeremy1952 left
ZachSylvanus:: Possibly
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm part of a species organism, it's not western or american
ZachSylvanus:: But to claim it's the Biggest in History is to bastardize cultures that have come before
howbloom:: video presentations?
ladyfractal:: michael: yes, you are...but at the same time, you really *are* a Westerner
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: whatever I'm part of, it's emerging globally and not in one place
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--I'm IN the West
howbloom:: easy, when someone wnats to hire me to give a speech in Amsterdam
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: not necessarily identified with it
howbloom:: they send a videographer
Chris OConnor:: Howard - you said you do presentations by video
howbloom:: and we ta;e it
Chris OConnor:: Ahh
howbloom:: tape
howbloom:: or we do it live via telephone
ladyfractal:: michael: your mindset is very different, I think, than someone from Chinese or Islamic civilization
ladyfractal:: michael: your grounding assumptions, I think, are different
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady, I'm sure there are people like me over there
howbloom:: doing it live via webcam is something I've done but it's primitive at best
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know I have counterparts
Chris OConnor:: A video would be the best method
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there is a me in Iran, a me in China etc
howbloom:: it is so far
howbloom:: michael
AvatarofPower:: heh... talk to Steve Mann
howbloom:: what you're saying is right
Chris OConnor:: I don't think the Atheist Alliance has much of a budget
howbloom:: so very right
howbloom:: but the you in Iraq or the you in Indonesia
ladyfractal:: michael: Oh, I'm sure that there are people in other civilizations who are more like Westerners than of other cultures. Hell, you know me, I practice a Japanese interpretation of an originally hindu religion...so there's cross-fertilization
howbloom:: doesn't have the freedom to be you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the me in Iraq is hiding in a basemenet
howbloom:: so much so that, get this
Chris OConnor:: Michael - true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: of course, I'm in a basement
howbloom:: the intellectual hear to the Islamic world is Egypt
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I'll let you out next week...maybe.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: thanks zomb
ZombieHatesYou:: -.o
howbloom:: Do you know how many new books are published in Cairo every year
Sephirah Geburah:: How many?!
howbloom:: in the whole nation of Egypt?
howbloom:: 300
AvatarofPower:: million?
ladyfractal:: michael: But my *grounding* assumptions are very different....for instance, that I would turn away from the faith of my parents without too much thought of what they would think about it is, I think, very Western.
AvatarofPower::
ZombieHatesYou:: Not very many, I'd wager...
Sephirah Geburah:: oh
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there really should be a way to connect people in Egypt etc. with people here
Sephirah Geburah:: sheesh
howbloom:: now let's look at Israel
howbloom:: it has a population less than a third of the city of Cairo
ladyfractal:: michael: you see my point?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: like a dating service, only for intellectuals
ZachSylvanus:: I think it's largely a matter of the audience available to read, as well...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or kids
howbloom:: wanna guess how many new books Israel publishes?
ladyfractal:: michael: that would be interesting
howbloom:: 4,000
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: get kids on different sides to communicate
pctacitus:: millions
ZombieHatesYou:: I've had close contact with some Egyptians fresh off the boat, as it were. They were completely horrified by me.
howbloom:: which means that the huge, enormours brainpower
Chris OConnor:: Howard - thats amazing
howbloom:: the extraordinary creativity of the Islamic world
ZachSylvanus:: What's the literacy rate of the Islamic world?
howbloom:: is being squashed, squeldhe,
howbloom:: strangled
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: smooshed
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - why?
howbloom:: the literacy rate is low
ZachSylvanus:: And of Israel?
howbloom:: so is the standard of living
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Why were they horrified by me?
Glory Matthews:: Zomba, yes, but all it takes is an average westerner to br horrified of one who thinks freely.
howbloom:: literacy rate in israel is high
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - yea
ZachSylvanus:: Standard of living?
AvatarofPower:: squelched, mashed, mushed and dashed
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: can Israel survive?
howbloom:: the standard of living is the highest in the middle east
ladyfractal:: zach; the Israeli literacy rate is in the upper 90's...like most (non-American) Industrial nations
AvatarofPower:: butcherd, slaughtered, ripped up and smashed
howbloom:: if Israel does not survive I will be very very upse
AvatarofPower:: *bow*
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Well, a few reasons...I had dyed red hair, a kid and I wasn't married, I smoke, I swear, I talk too much, and I was working a hard physical labor job.
ZachSylvanus:: So should we really be surprised that fewer books are published in a society where they're less useful?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if any population doesn't survive, I'll feel it
howbloom:: however it is living on the edge of a razor blade
Chris OConnor:: Wouldn't Israel be conquered in short order if the US were not supporting it?
howbloom:: barely haning in there
ZombieHatesYou:: They fluctuated between thinking I was the Whore of Babylon to being in love with me.
ZachSylvanus:: not anymore, I don't think
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - LOL I gues that would do it
howbloom:: but remember once upon a time france supplied israel with all its jets
ZombieHatesYou:: Indeed.
ZombieHatesYou:: You know me. I' m brash.
howbloom:: then france sold out for arab oil
ZachSylvanus:: They've got enough technology and scientific research that I think they could probably hold their end up fairly well...
Chris OConnor:: hehe true
ladyfractal:: zach; the problem is that at one point, the Islamic world was THE most enlightened, scientific culture going...
howbloom:: and stopped selling weapons to israel
AvatarofPower:: 300 versus 4000 is a bit much, though, zach
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--oh there you go...get a bunch of western women to attract fundamentalist muslim men who are considered pillars of their community....then post the chat tran*****s when they ask for cybersex
ladyfractal:: zach: then something seems to have gone terribly, terribly wrong
howbloom:: here's something else to consider
ZachSylvanus:: Not if the relationship in standard of living and literacy is very off
howbloom:: there are 1.2 billion moslems
ZachSylvanus:: Lady: Western civilization
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: Oh blah. :P
ladyfractal:: zach: ?
ZachSylvanus:: We've crushed them since we mounted the crusades
howbloom:: almost all of them agree that the jews are a curse on the planet
Meme Wars joined
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Zombie--hey, it just might work
howbloom:: and that israel is an abomination
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could discredit the extremists
ZachSylvanus:: They were able to hold on very well, since they were in the middle of the spice road
ZombieHatesYou:: They think we are whores, Michael.
howbloom:: there are 5 million Israelis
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we know the islamic extremists are suckers for sex
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--exactly
ZachSylvanus:: And then our shipping routes pulled out the only economic advantage they had
howbloom:: do the arithmetic, who wins?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you could out them
Chris OConnor:: Hey meme
Chris OConnor:: you're late!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we could resettle the Jews in Texas, I'm sure they'll assimilate just fine
ladyfractal:: michael: they *really* do...although what I've started doing on Yahoo is asking if Muslim women will chat about sex with any man who asks
cinnamon321:: I met someone from Iran once, and she says that there are practicing Jews there.
Meme Wars:: So did I miss the guest speaker?
howbloom:: Jews? in Texas?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: course I'm technically jewish and afraid of Texans so maybe not

ZombieHatesYou:: *giggles*
Chris OConnor:: Michael - you sure are filled with fancy ideas lol
ladyfractal:: michael: its AMAZING how quickly that shuts them up
howbloom:: we jews tend to be left wing liberals
Chris OConnor:: Meme - Howard Bloom is here now
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a bleeding heart handwringing liberal
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "handwringing" is the latest epithet
ladyfractal:: michael: Jews in Texas? Do they even ALLOW Jews in Texas? they don't eat bbq pork ribs.
howbloom:: about the only place in texas where we'd fit in is austin
howbloom:: the progressive capital of the state
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: hey, Jews survive (somehow) in florida
howbloom:: actually there are jewish texans
AvatarofPower:: lol... i'm conservative.... for a hippy... which is to say moderately liberal
ZombieHatesYou:: This is driving me nuts. I want so much to be able to listen to what you all have to say, and my kids keep screaming at me. How frustrating.
howbloom:: kinky friedman
cinnamon321:: There's Jews everywhere hehe
ladyfractal:: howard: Austin is the ONLY part of Texas I'll actually cast a shadow
ZachSylvanus:: As opposed to the middle of the Islamic world, howard? :P
Meme Wars:: I had to do emergency work to my wife's postal jeep, so I missed out.
ladyfractal:: howard: sorry, I was being facetious
howbloom:: look, we jews have a problem
howbloom:: the irish have ireland
howbloom:: the french have france
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we humans have a problem
howbloom:: the english have england
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the christians have america
AvatarofPower:: we humans hav e aproblem
AvatarofPower:: indeed, michael
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - being a single mom is rough
howbloom:: and we were tossed out of the postage stamp of land we once had
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the animists have....um...
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I manage.
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - I once was one.
howbloom:: in the same way that the french are wedded to the soil of france
Chris OConnor:: lol
howbloom:: we are wedded to the soil from which we came
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the buddhists have hollywood
howbloom:: god knows why
ZombieHatesYou:: A single mom? *quirks brow*
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't believe in being wedded to soil. I believe group identity is a narrative process
howbloom:: and god knows what intinctual thing supports the power of tribal memory
AvatarofPower:: howard... modern western cultures are absolutely removed from the land
ladyfractal:: howard: I hope you don't mind my saying this...but as a black woman, I almost envy Jews for having a Jerusalem
howbloom:: narratives are based on instinct
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't necessarily think so...
howbloom:: they swirl around instinctual points
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think there is an instinct to form groups
howbloom:: they are based on hierarchy games
Chris OConnor:: Lady - Wow...I can imagine you do
AvatarofPower:: its the culture that the people are attatched to... its the human constructions ON the land that modern western cultures are attached to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but I don't know if jewishness is instinctual.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: or any other "ishness"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think it's just grouping
Chris OConnor:: Lady - They have a place to call home
howbloom:: have you ever looked at Aristotelian plot structure from an instincual and evolutionary point of view?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Jews have a narrative, Palestinians have a narrative
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they are both victim narratives
ZombieHatesYou:: My Zombishness is instinctual.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives are very similar
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they see each other as aliens, but they're brothers
ladyfractal:: chris: I have Jewish friends, I've gone to Passover saders and when I've heard "next year in Jerusalem" I understand what it *truly* means to have a land that is yours
howbloom:: the Palestinian narrative was started in the 1960s
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no land of my own
howbloom:: did you know that what is now called Jordan occupies
howbloom:: 75% of the territory once called Palestine
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: victims are victims, they generate a retro-narrative
ladyfractal:: brb
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: you can create a thousand years of narrative without there even being a reality to it
howbloom:: and do you know how palestinians are treated in that 75% of palestine
howbloom:: ?
howbloom:: do you know about black september?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Palestinians are the Jews of the Middle East, aside from the Jews
ZombieHatesYou:: What is that? Black September?
Chris OConnor:: Howard - I don't know much of the history of that region...and should read up on it a bit
pctacitus:: yeah, like shit
howbloom:: 10,000 palestinians under Yassir Arafat
pctacitus:: Jordanians massacred palastinians
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wish people would just realize they are weaving a story and it's killing them
howbloom:: were living in Palestine--Jordan
howbloom:: yes, you've got it
ZombieHatesYou:: *frowns*
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: there's a point when one's self-narrative unravels and you have to see you are just a member of a species
ladyfractal:: michael: but that's not going to happen...people are far too wedded to their memes
howbloom:: tacitus, how did you know and can you tell the story
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--it will happen someday
pctacitus:: history
ladyfractal:: michael: *particularly* if those memes help them feel special and beats back the demon of having to deal with their own lives
howbloom:: well few know that corner of history
howbloom:: it never made the headlines
pctacitus:: Arafat was too politically powerful
ZombieHatesYou:: I will have to read up on that.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - I'll agree with Lady....I don't see it ever happening
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: in Ireland, at one point, 3 children were killed by a bomb...their parents were protestant and catholic. Neither side could use them as martyrs. That seemed to break the spell for a lot of people.
cinnamon321:: I agree ladyfractal
howbloom:: the slaughter of Palestinians by...Palestinians
pctacitus:: the king of Jordan had the army kick the PLO out by force
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nature gave us tribal identities for a reason...perhaps she breaks those open and gives us species identities when the pressure is great enough.
ladyfractal:: chris: I'm not saying it will *never* happen...but I think it will be a terribly long road. There's a rising tide of irrationalism and I don't think we've seen the crest of it yet
howbloom:: yes, Arafat's boys were doing what they do best--stealing cars and forcing people out of their homes at gunpoiint
pctacitus:: tanks vs rifles
Glory Matthews:: Michale, I really identify with what you said ... I often feel not just from my culture, but just human
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I would imagine the blaming of Jews for the Palestinians is partly a product of guilt over how Arabs have treateed them?
pctacitus:: who wins? just guess people
howbloom:: and there were suspicions that Arafat might want the Jordanian throne
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: tribal narratives are soaked with guilt, that's why I can't have identify with them
howbloom:: michael, it would be nice
pctacitus:: Arafat wants power? Im so shocked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: arabs and Israelis and Americans, all thee groups have stories...and guilt is fuelling a big chunk of them
Chris OConnor:: Lady - I am afraid for our species. I see ignorance everywhere I turn...and this ignorance is embraced as if its a virtue to not care about self-education
howbloom:: if the Arabs felt guilty over the way they've penned up the Palestinians in refugee camps
pctacitus:: no wait Im not at all shocked
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: exactly
howbloom:: and used them as political pawns
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if everyone felt their own guilt, they'd stop projecting it
howbloom:: but I don't think there's a stitch of guilt about it
ladyfractal:: chris: that is *exactly* what I'm talking about...you and I are on the same page
howbloom:: and you're right
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: but guilt makes them feel unconsciously that they deserve to be overwhelmed
pctacitus:: of course not
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: so they push and strategize
howbloom:: there's no need for guilt when you can blame it on the Israelis
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and form final solutions
pctacitus:: it's war by proxy
howbloom:: the jews who secretly run america etc
Glory Matthews:: Chris, I am concerned about that too.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - the problem is the majority of people on this planet are idiots...and they don't care about their idiocy.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and both populations are separated by a gulf of perception
Chris OConnor:: Glory - I don't see a solution
pctacitus:: the arabs are hoping both sides will kill each other off
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: their narratives
ladyfractal:: chris: My housemate, is very well educated and well-traveled...but without realizing the implications, dismisses with a wave of the hand, rationality, logic and science as being 'just another (inferior) way of viewing the world'
ZombieHatesYou:: There's never need for guilt when you can blame it on someone else...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: group identity replaces individual conscience because it's too hard to bear
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: and everyone becomes a robot
Chris OConnor:: Howard - Why is it that there are so many jews in political office in the US?

Edited by: Chris OConnor at: 10/30/05 4:17 pm

Chris OConnor

howbloom:: group identities are very important
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jews? try christians!
howbloom:: group identities give us our individual identity
ladyfractal:: chris: when I tried to explain to her that in some Islamic states, for instance, the accused in a murder can have friends come in and testiy on his behalf and that testimony is counted as evidentiary that is a scary world, she didn't understand it.
Glory Matthews:: Chris, people don't want to know, they just want to be sheltered, and we all know this and only extreme circumstances will change that.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more identified with my abilities and not with a group beyond my immediate family
cinnamon321:: My biggest pipe dream for the future would be that humans would gain a species identity as the flow of information between the nether-regions of the world increases and people lose some of their ignorance.
Chris OConnor:: Is there any truth to what I've heard of Jews controlling this nation?
pctacitus:: chris?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I feel more like a piece of music than a piece of land
pctacitus:: are you ok?
ladyfractal:: michael: hmmmm...I understand what you are saying...I've been giving a lot of thought to it as you speak
howbloom:: LOL
howbloom:: look, music is all about group identity
howbloom:: think for a moment
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I know if I were black, and I spent time with black people, I'd form an "authentic" black identity
howbloom:: music is used as a flag to show what group you belong to
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: same with jewishness...if I was SEEN as a member of the group, I'd feel their narrative
ladyfractal:: michael: But I have to say, I *am* part of something larger than myself or my family. My personal story, who I am,is inseperable from my being a black American and a child of the civil rights movement.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--that's why white suburban kids talk ghetto

Chris OConnor:: I listen to rap
howbloom:: to say fuck you to their parents
ZachSylvanus:: you rebel :P
Chris OConnor:: I like Tu Pac, Eminem, etc..
Glory Matthews:: Howard, I relate with the music statement more than anything else that has been said tonight!
howbloom:: to say we have an identity of our own
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel connected to all white people just cos I'm white..but if whites were persecuted, then I'd have a "white" identity
Chris OConnor:: I also listen to Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman, Al Green, Marvin Gaye
howbloom:: yes

Edited by: Chris OConnor at: 10/30/05 4:18 pm

Chris OConnor

MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: white kids saying "we have our own identity, and it's black!"
howbloom:: michael is right
pctacitus:: isn't the music thing in Global Brain?
ladyfractal:: michael; LOL!!!
howbloom:: opposiiton in the greatest bonder
howbloom:: music is another bonder
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't feel Jewish, but if I lived in Israel I might
howbloom:: the music thing isn
howbloom:: 't in global brain
howbloom:: it
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: as it is, nobody notices my jewishness so I don't identify with it
howbloom:: s part of my fieldwork in music
Chris OConnor:: Howard - it is something you should write about someday
ZombieHatesYou:: I think our "ethnic" or "cultural" identity is what often gets us into these messes in the first place...
howbloom:: it's one of the things I learned helping new subcultures get on their feet
pctacitus:: Are you sure Howard?
ladyfractal:: michael: well, my 'authentic' black identity is a very different 'black' identity than what gets into the media
Chris OConnor:: Howard - or I should say "publish" someday
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I lived in a prison and was seen as a criminal, I'd adopt the criminal identity
Glory Matthews:: Howard, I would LOVE to read about the music idea.
Chris OConnor:: Howard - explain disco then
ladyfractal:: howard; disco??!!!!!!!
howbloom:: hang on
Chris OConnor:: I even liked disco
howbloom:: how did
Chris OConnor:: I LOVE music
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think all the "identities" people are coasting on will turn out to be automatic programs which will shock us into a new identity, a species identity
howbloom:: Al sharpton's name come up?
howbloom:: then we'll do disco
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: those identities are becoming idols, brittle
Chris OConnor:: Who didn't like Saturday Night Fever?
NaddiaAoC:: Chris: You liked disco? Wow. My whole opinion of you just went down the crapper.
ladyfractal:: howard: Yes, briefly...I was saying that my black identity was more like Shelby Steele than Al Sharpton
Chris OConnor:: Cheryl - I sure did
cinnamon321:: Micheal, we will eventually HAVE to have a species identity.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I can imagine having a disco identity
howbloom:: good for you
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: cinnamon--a lot of people have already glimpsed it
howbloom:: I spent six months babysitting al sharpton and
Chris OConnor:: I love music....soooooo much. I like bagpipes, banjos, the pan flute
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: when you arent' accepted by ANY group, something happens to you
howbloom:: am utterly disgusted at what the media has made of him
ladyfractal:: howard: the ONLY reason I would invoke that man is to emphasize the ways in which I am not like him
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are Jewish but the Jewish community rejects you, you become what?
pctacitus:: Al Sharpton's campaign would reelect GWB
howbloom:: he's a con man and he's been legitmated
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you're black but you're gay, are you treated the same as if you were just black? Identity becomes complex.
ladyfractal:: howard: not that I have strong feelings about him at all.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: legitimated lol
Meme Wars left
NaddiaAoC:: I love music too, Chris, but I have yet to meet a disco song that I like.
howbloom:: I do, he's a fascinating guy and extremely charming
howbloom:: but a thief
howbloom:: ok disco if you're up for it
ladyfractal:: michael; I can say, definitely, that you're not. there is a tension between my being black and my being gay
pctacitus:: ok
Chris OConnor:: Lady - I would love to have a conversation someday about racism...its of great interest to me.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Al Sharpton is popular for his ability to get racism publicized when nobody else will touch it
ladyfractal:: michael: for a long time I didn't have much to do with the black community because of homophobia
howbloom:: gays in the 1950s and 1960s were bashed, beaten when they went on the street
Glory Matthews:: Michael, you become Velveta, just like the rest of the ethnic-uncentered americans who struggle for identity.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--but maybe that tension gives you a way to see through the illusion of both identities?
howbloom:: they had no ligeitimate identity in our culture
Chris OConnor:: Howard - lets talk disco
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think you have to be "velveta"
ladyfractal:: michael: Yes, it does...
howbloom:: gay clubs were raided by the police and everyone arrested for being gay
howbloom:: this is the background of the disco movement
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I have no real ethnic identification but I identify with art, music, things involving pattern
howbloom:: one sunday I got a call from a close friend in the music business
Chris OConnor:: Howard! Are you saying disco is a gay thing?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: howard--so everyone acted gay and that solved the problem! I get it!
ladyfractal:: michael: But when I moved to Oregon, and found that this place is white as new-fallen snow, I suddenly feel *very* black...
howbloom:: it must have been 1975
LanDroid joined
howbloom:: or 1976
ladyfractal:: chris; no, I understand where howard is going
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lady--well that I can understand
NaddiaAoC:: Hi LanDroid!
howbloom:: he was on fire island, a place where gays can quietyl be themselves
Chris OConnor:: Speaking of gay....welcome back LanDroid
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if I moved into an all black neighborhood, I'd feel conspicuously white
AvatarofPower:: lol
Chris OConnor::
NaddiaAoC:: I was still burping up breastmilk in 1975.
LanDr


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