Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:13 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
The Disagreement Thread 
Author Message


Post The Disagreement Thread
This thread is hereby dedicated to the proliferation of dissent and condemnation of other people's beliefs. You are not allowed to post to this thread, unless you have something negative to say. You may say it about anything, but be forewarned, we might label your post unrelated, nonpertinent, and irrelevant and laugh at you. There has been entirely too much harmony and agreement amongst our ranks and this thread is here to put an end to that silliness.

I will initiate this experiment with three of my own criticisms.

1) I disagree with Dawkins interpretation of the following lines from Lamina by Keats:

Quote:

......Do not all charms fly
At the mere touch of cold philosophy?
There was an awful rainbow once in heaven:
We know her woof, her texture; she is given
In the dull catalogue of common things.
Philosophywill clip an Angel's wings,
Conquer all mysteries by rule and line,
Empty the haunted air, and gnomed mine --
Unweave a rainbow . . .



2) I disagree with Dawkins overall evaluation of Postmodernism.

3) I disagree with the Pringle's company that their product in any way tastes good.

So, it is now your job to disagree with me, or find someone else to disagree with. I would much rather talk about the ideas you all might reject, but I understand that not everyone is as critical as myself. :evil :evil

Edited by: Timothy Schoonover at: 5/19/03 7:19:24 pm



Mon May 19, 2003 6:18 pm
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13976
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1966
Thanked: 753 times in 597 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 8

Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
I disagree with your views on postmodernism. :b I really do.

XOXOX

Chris

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 10/30/05 4:49 pm



Mon May 26, 2003 1:13 am
Profile Email YIM WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: May 2002
Posts: 237
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: Female

Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
I started to disagree with Dawkins a bit in chapter 2, but as I continued reading he addressed my disagreement. He was commenting on how people think it's cool to be ignorant of the sciences. It simply isn't given nearly the importance by most people as is art, music, and entertainment. People would laugh at you if you didn't know who Michael Jordan, Mel Gibsom, or Britney Spears was. But how many among the general population know who Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, or Steven J. Gould is? I graduated from college and didn't have a clue.

He seemed to lament about how people have no interest in understanding science. He made an interesting point, that just because we're not all musicians doesn't mean we don't enjoy music. I'm completely tone deaf, yet I love to listen to music. Why is it that so many people who are not scientists are not even interested in understanding science?

I think that a lot of that has to do with how little emphasis is put on science in grade school. Children tend to be fascinated with science and technology. They are so curious and want to know how things work. But if that sense of wonder isn't inspired at an early age it may be completely lost. By the time kids hit their teenage years, perhaps even earlier, peer pressure and "popular subjects" often become more important than their own intellectual discovery. Teenagers join the herd.

Dawkins made the point that many university students seem to lack the desire to learn about science and he attributes that to the lack of enthusiasm on the part of the professors. I think that there may be some truth to that. Perhaps scientists and university professors could do more to encourage learning. But it seems to me that the problem goes back even further. The problem starts in childhood and in the schools. Get kids interested in science at an early age and I think they'll be much more likely to be interested in it as adults.

Nad




Mon May 26, 2003 4:10 am
Profile


Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
Tim I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment posted in this thread. I am unable to see how you can make such a claim as you have made here. what possible justification can you present for such an outlandish conclusion. Pringles are indeed good. I personally challenge you to present any evidence to the contrary.:D




Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:17 pm


Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
Chris

How can you disagree with ambiguity? = )

Cheryl

I think one of the reasons people are often indifferent to or avoindant of science is because the scientific profession is often portrayed as an exclusive elite of intellectuals, and the scientist him or herself is imbued with a certain celebrity status to the layman. I am not exactly sure how or why this intellectual cult of personality is propagated, but I do think that it is a very real factor in how people come to regard science. Secondly, and perhaps more significantly, modern universities exist more as a loose association of mutually independent fields of inquiry. There is no longer the synthesis of learning that was characteristic of the greek and medieval universities. As a result, many individuals go through their respective programs and become 'experts' or obtain a specialization in whatever category and depart ignorant of the vast breath of knowledge available to them. To be fair, we cannot really blame this on the structure of the modern university. The proliferation of knowledge and the diversity of subject matter makes any sort of practical synthesis nearly impossible. Only those with the requisite aptitude and that are committed to a lifetime of learning are able to achieve this ideal, and even then, only in part.

Wmmurrah

The Pringles company is well known for its use of animal excremant as a staple ingredient in their products. It is in fact what gives it its distinctive flavor. Additionally, the company has notorious financial links to not only Saddam Hussien and Osama Bin Laden, but also the Hitler Regime. They employ child labor in their 'factories' and are responsible for faking all of the moon landings. Their mission statement is, and I quote: "To subvert the lives of the decent and honest American worker by all means necessary, to extort each citizen of his or her money, and to exploit the Constitution." But worst of all, dear Wmmurrah, they maliciously torture hamsters. The bastards!




Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:10 pm
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Wearing Out Library Card


Joined: May 2002
Posts: 237
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post
Gender: Female

Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
But worst of all, dear Wmmurrah, they maliciously torture hamsters. The bastards!

No offense, Tim, but this statement drips with bias. My mental image of Kilael is a drunk mouse. You seem to have an unusual fondness for rodents.

Cheryl




Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:55 pm
Profile


Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
Well, in light of such overwhelming evidence I have no recourse but to reverse my position on Pringles. From this day forward I will only eat them when no one is looking :D




Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:47 am


Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
The fundamental contradiction in Dawkins' position is that, as he noted from the outset of The Selfish Gene , he formulated this as a "what if" rhetorical position - but then went on to treat it as if it was a fait accompli - as indeed it has subsequently come to be understood by the reading public. It is also generally understood as a rationalization of selfishness, mapping onto an increasing narcissism in the population, and indeed, could be argued to be responsible for it in some measure.

It seems that Dawkins is substituting the teleology of religion for the teleology of genes. How can genes have will? And if we are at the mercy of their will, then what explains childless people?

The fact that we have genes makes us lumbering robots? This is what he calls us in River out of Eden, and this is why he and Dennet have earned the reputation of ultra Darwinists, who go far beyond what Darwin himself ever intended for his theory.

It seems to me that Dawkin's position is inherently misanthropic, and that he creates straw men out of imaginary creationists to disguise this.

Edited by: sqwark at: 6/8/03 6:56 pm



Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:42 pm


Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
I agree with Dawkins' view of postmodernisn, but do not agree that he conceived of it himself. He was so threatened by another discipline claiming for itself the role of Criticism (as he admits), that he energetically sought to discredit them. Fortunately, this job had already been largely done by Socal and Bricmont, paving the way for Dawkins to do his own in less than three months, an inexplicably short period of time for anyone to produce a definitive critique of such an abstruse field far outside their own. He had help, and lots of it.

Edited by: sqwark at: 6/8/03 6:55 pm



Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:53 pm
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Agrees that Reading is Fundamental

Bronze Contributor 2

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 287
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 3 times in 2 posts
Gender: Male

Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
Many theories go beyond what their "creator" intended. Look at Einstein and Relativity!

I also don't remember seeing Dawkins claiming any of this is completely his own. Much as Hawking titles his book, "On the Shoulder of Giants", scientists recognize their work to be derivative and extensive of some previous scientist's.

As such, I disagree with the extent to which you criticize Dawkins, essentially by creating red herring arguments that don't in fact have anything to do with the content as it stands of Unweaving




Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:15 pm
Profile YIM WWW


Post Re: The Disagreement Thread
Sqwark also posted his views in the To Hell with my Genes! thread. Hop over there if you want to jump in on the conversation.

On the subject of Postmodernism:

There has been a somewhat informative discussion of Postmodernism in the God is Dead thread in the Roundtable forum. I have not read Intellectual Imposters / Fashionable Nonsense yet, but perhaps I should expedite that goal. So many books, so little time..... At any rate, I think that I will officially suggest it in the Book Suggestion Forum. It would provide some lively and energetic conversation at least, unlike Unweaving.

However, I am continually perplexed at how so many people can point to Sokal and Bricmont as if they had thoroughly 'debunked' postmodernism once and for all. When I hear statements like this I wonder how much the person really knows about postmodernism. I mean, those persons who call themselves postmodernists cannot even delineate the boundaries of their own position, not because those boundaries are inherently ambiguous as it is construed, but because postmodernism is a term used to refer to a vast number of diverse categories. Many people are happily willing to throw out all of postmodernism when they cannot even define poststructuralism, culteral relativism, pragmatism, deconstruction, epistemic relativism, etc. To complicate matters, any given 'postmodernist' may or may not subscribe to any of the above categories. Moreover, these would-be critics often don't even know the arguments as to why postmodernists believe what they do. They simply reject one or two of the more prevalent conclusions, such as reality is unknowable or truth is relative, and laugh at the great absurdity of it all.

Postmodernism means different things to different people and what is being done with postmodernism today is different than the theories which gave rise to its name. Personally, I think that anyone who subscribes to anything that has ever been attributed to postmodernism is a looney, but its takes more "sloppy logic" as Sokal would say, to believe that postmodernism has been debunked than it does to understand that at the heart of it, postmodernists raise a valid critique many basic western assumptions.

I'm sure that there have been some amazingly ridiculous theories put forward in the name of postmodernism, just as there has been with Quantum Physics and Relativity, as Zach pointed out, but we are doing ourselves a great disservice by dismissing it as some sort of intellectual mysticism.




Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:47 pm
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books

Books by New Authors



Booktalk.org on Facebook 



BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Sense and Goodness Without God - by Richard CarrierFrankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2014. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank