Genryu:: yes as Michael says and other examples
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you are in a group that sees liberals as acceptable, you're lucky
Meme Wars:: Well, as of now due to the passing of Asimov and Sagan, you are now at my lonely top of the list. That is why I asked you to include other names.
Richard Dawkins:: Cinnamon, you need to choose better friends
cinnamon321:: They're not friends...just people in my classes.
Richard Dawkins:: Meme Wars, I think Pinker belongs on your list
cinnamon321:: Pinkers books will be classics someday I think.
Chris OConnor:: RD - That makes me feel good...knowing we read Pinker next.
Richard Dawkins:: How old are your friends who think liberal is a dirty word?
Meme Wars:: Well, I have included Pinker just recently.
cinnamon321:: Anywhere from 20-50
Gluepot and Fatass:: Richard, which books would you recommend on POSTMODERNISM?
Chris OConnor:: Tim!!!! Oh no....
ZombieHatesYou:: I read an interesting article in a paper here ( I can't remember which it was, sorry) about the 'new conservatives' in America...college kids dressing like how liberals are supposed to look, or something, and running around furthering extreme conservative views.
Richard Dawkins:: I don't think postmodernism exists
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--I read that one
Chris OConnor:: RD - Gluepot (aka Tim) is our resident postmodernist
ZombieHatesYou:: I got worried, Michael. How will I tell the tree huggers from the gay bashers if they all dress the same?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "postmodernism" is almost an epithet now, meaning "relativity in all things and no firm standard"
Meme Wars:: I live in a very liberal state (Washington State, home of Seattle) and even there the conservative environment is taking over. Liberal here even has a bad name.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: lol zombie
Genryu:: that's just bizarre Zombie lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: meme--me too
Gluepot and Fatass:: Many do though, and I think its important to understand the arguments....I don't think I have a good enough grasp on them.
ZombieHatesYou:: Twas, Genryu. I saved the article. I'll mail it to you.
cinnamon321:: I prefer moderate above liberal and conservative.
Chris OConnor:: Gluepot - and you very well never have a grasp on them. They are extremely slippery.
Genryu:: those I've come across RD are mostly young but from all ages groups
Richard Dawkins:: Yes, moderte is OK
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - me too
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: moderate is "liberal" now. "Liberal" is "communist".
Genryu:: tell them the tree's male Zombie
conanlee:: Richard, could I have your email address? Mine is email@example.com
Chris OConnor:: I am considered a moderate. I'm socially liberal and financially conservative...
Meme Wars:: Same here Chris.
Chris OConnor:: Conan - I'm not sure posting that in this chat room would be in his next interest
Genryu:: Conan maybe it's not a good idea to do that in open chat
ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: Would certainly cut down on the rampant dendriphyllia around here.
Genryu:: lol Zombie#
cinnamon321:: Some ways I'm socially liberal....
Gluepot and Fatass:: deni...what?
Richard Dawkins:: dendrophilia
ZombieHatesYou:: Eh...tree fornicating.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm liberal except with food. I'm a picky eater.
ZombieHatesYou:: Or however you spell it.
cinnamon321:: lol Michael
Chris OConnor:: LOL Michael
Gluepot and Fatass:: is that more glossolalia?
ZombieHatesYou:: It's early. I woke up special to be here. Leave me alone. :P
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I almost missed this chat cos I thought it was 10 pacific
Meme Wars:: Atheism--my discomfort with the word is it is secondary to theism and has no meaning without first the word theism to refer to.
Chris OConnor:: I have always felt the conservatives have a better grasp on national defense
Richard Dawkins:: Yes, you have a point MW
Meme Wars:: The superior position is no position at all.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm not so sure, Chris
ZombieHatesYou:: That's what you get for not paying attention to my expostulations in chat, Michael. You must hang on my every word.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: sorry zombs
ZombieHatesYou:: You ought to be. *nods solemnly*
Meme Wars:: When someone else states a position, the ball is in their court to prove their position.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: look both ways before you expostulate
Chris OConnor:: I am aware of how Professor Dawkins feels about the war/slaughter
Genryu:: they invented the concept lol yes Chris but the whole notion of a nation state has problems for me. It's an abstraction used to promote not always healthy agendas
ZombieHatesYou:: I always do. One can never be too careful with the expostulations.
Chris OConnor:: I doubt war will ever be eradicated.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: It seems easier to get people to sacrifice their time/money/blood for war than to make the necessary sacrifices for peace, even if those sacrifices are easier.
Richard Dawkins:: War is a lot less respectable in people's minds than it used to be
Chris OConnor:: That is one theme in "The Lucifer Principle" that really made sense.
Jeremy1952:: I'm not sure "nation state" is an abstraction. They seem pretty real
Richard Dawkins:: In 1914 war was thought to be glorious
Chris OConnor:: Hello Hyanxiety
Meme Wars:: I see Atheism is of no position and does not need defending, but unfortunately, definitions are assign and a position is postulated.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it's not that I'm against war absolutely, I just think we could make so much of it unnecessary with better planning and social involvement
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: war is still thought to be glorious by many
Genryu:: that's the problem with the notion Jeremy to my mind. There's no 'thing' there that is the nation state.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: war makes men out of boys
Hyanxiety:: Gee, I don't want to go to war with anyone, lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: it gives us a big stiff national self esteem
Richard Dawkins:: The recent Iraq war was supposed to be justified by UN and some sort of ethical and legal position. In practice it wasn't, but at least we paid lip service to it
Meme Wars:: In the Old Testament, Genocide was condoned and commanded by Jehovah, God.
Jeremy1952:: Well, take Great Britain, for example: is it real? You know if you are there....
Chris OConnor:: I am embarrassed to be learning that much of our basis for attacking Iraq was built upon bad information
Richard Dawkins:: Not just bad information. Outright lies
Jeremy1952:: When Tony Blair decides to send troops somewhere, they fire real bullets;
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Bush gambled and lost
Genryu:: no it's not a real thing Jeremy. It's an abstraction that doesn't contain the reality
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: I think a lot of people knew that before we went in there...hence the huge amount of protest.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think he assumed there would be WMD and it would justify the war after the fact
Jeremy1952:: The fact that speaks for "great britain" causes real effects in the real world
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the last thing his people expected was to not find any
Richard Dawkins:: But Bush will probably be elected (for the first time) as a result of the war
conanlee:: Richard, someone said science is a "double-edge sword", how do you think about it?
Genryu:: sure that's the danger of the notion of the nation state
Meme Wars:: The USA could not hold out on the embargo against Iraq. We were having some oil shortage problems.
Chris OConnor:: RD - Yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Richard--Bush is in the "cracking" phase now. If he doesn't get another war, he could easily lose.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - you're probably correct
Richard Dawkins:: MG, I hope you are right
Richard Dawkins:: Tony Blair is in big trouble
Jeremy1952:: As well he should be
Meme Wars:: And Americans that are uncomfortable about the Iraq situation ar silent because oil prices went back down.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Tony will backfire on Bush. The British press isn't as weak as ours.
Genryu:: yes he is but I don't think he quite realizes that yet RD
Jeremy1952:: I lost my temper and told someone at work that Bush should be impeached....
Jeremy1952:: which I honestly think is true,
Richard Dawkins:: I agree, Jeremy
Jeremy1952:: But it isn't a popular position for continued employment
Chris OConnor:: I hate to admit in here that I voted for Bush. I've been a registered Republican for a long time. Soon I'll be Independent
Gluepot and Fatass:: The irony is, his bloodshet is supported most in the religious conservative camps
ZombieHatesYou:: Tsk, Chris
conanlee:: at least Tony doesn't prefer anti-science
Richard Dawkins:: What Clinton did with Miss Lewinsky is TRIVIAL compared to what Bush has done
Chris OConnor:: I know
Jeremy1952:: good point conanlee
Richard Dawkins:: Yes, Blair is pro science
Chris OConnor:: Blair has impressed me
Jeremy1952:: Before the stolen election and fake war, I already felt that the way the republicans here treated a sitting president
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Clinton's sexual sins are what gave some people the belief that Bush would never lie.
cinnamon321:: lol regarding Monica and Bill
Meme Wars:: Yes. Trivial. Reason energy meeting was secret is because the Iraq issue was discussed.
Jeremy1952:: 'bordered on treason
Genryu:: is it entirely coincidental that we have two 'Christian' leaders taking the West into unnecessary wars?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bill was the "childish president" and Bush is the "responsible adult"
Richard Dawkins:: I don't think it is coincidental Genryu
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: the American public is governed by archetypes, not logic
Richard Dawkins:: Good point MG
Genryu:: yes that's what scares me
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd like to see someone ask Bush if he believes in Revelation
Richard Dawkins:: The Rapture
Jeremy1952:: Is Blair Christian? I recall he declined to "pray" in public
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Because if he believes that WW3 is part of God's plan, I think we deserve to know
Richard Dawkins:: No, Blair is definitely Christian
cinnamon321:: lol....Bush scares me sometimes...he has done some things ok...but I think Bush is more of a representative of the mindset of the masses than Clinton was.
Gluepot and Fatass:: The more I hear Clinton speak, the more impressed I am with his ideas
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: I can't even look at Bush and think about anything dealing with responsibility...he looks too much like a monkey, and can't speak properly.
Genryu:: he's a fairly open Christian verging on born again from what I've seen
cinnamon321:: I liked Clintons policies better.
Richard Dawkins:: Blair was embarrassed at being asked whether he prays with Bush. but he is Christian
Jeremy1952:: Too bad.
Chris OConnor:: This may seem extreme, but I am genuinely concerned with falling back into the dark ages. War is horrible, and with WMD we could easily cause a nuclear winter and regress culturally in every way.
conanlee:: a little strange
Jeremy1952:: About him being Christian, not about him being embarrassed!
Meme Wars:: Let's see. The rapture will contain mostly white women, a few white men, and hardly any one else. Something is wrong with equal opportunity!
Genryu:: lol Jeremy
Gluepot and Fatass:: Few know that Clinton is more of a historian than a politician
Richard Dawkins:: I think Presidents should be allowed to come back for a third term, provided they have four years out in between
ZombieHatesYou:: The born again bit gets dangerous.
Richard Dawkins:: It is only the advantage of a sitting president that counts
Jeremy1952:: Sounds right to me, Dr. Dawkins. It would satisfy the intent of term limitation
Jeremy1952:: One of the greatest problems of a democracy... maybe the greatest problem... is lack of consistency
Richard Dawkins:: Clinton for2004
Genryu:: now that would make sense RD. I could never quite understand why the Americans didn't just use their common sense and change the rules so that Clinton could be re-elected lol
ZombieHatesYou:: We have common sense?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'd love to see Hillary become President. Ann Coulter's head would explode.
ZombieHatesYou:: Where'd you get that idea?
Meme Wars:: Clinton is young enough.
Richard Dawkins:: CLINTON FOR 2004
Richard Dawkins:: I mean Bill
conanlee:: what about Al Gore ?
ZombieHatesYou:: I would prefer to see Clinton back in office, though I never thought I'd say that...lol. It's got to be better than Shrub. Shrub's made a mess of everything.
Chris OConnor:: RD - that actually sounds like a good idea.
Gluepot and Fatass:: I think we are fairly consistent in the significant issues....like war, hegemony, national interests
Meme Wars:: What's wrong with Gore? Too stuffy?
Chris OConnor:: RD - 4 years off
conanlee:: the former vice president
Richard Dawkins:: I like Gore
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think Gore got a bad deal. The press focused on what he wore and not on his ideas.
Jeremy1952:: I hear, Chris, fears of WWIII: but I don't' see who the other side could be. Russia is pretty much in bd with us
Richard Dawkins:: Yes
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Gore never got an honest hearing in the public
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nobody read his book
Richard Dawkins:: Bush couldn't write a book if he tried
Jeremy1952:: nowadays, and there's real question if their nukes would even work
Genryu:: China maybe Chris
ZombieHatesYou:: Michael: But that's the American way. I know women that voted specifically for Clinton because he had good hair.
Meme Wars:: Well, at least with Gore we would sign on to the Kyoto protocol.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Bush's favorite children's book is Hop on Pop. Apt title.
conanlee:: Meme- nothing wrong, I think Gore is much better than Bush
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - In a split second we could have a confrontation with China and a group of other nations we have long trampled over
Genryu:: lol Zombie
cinnamon321:: lol zom
ZombieHatesYou:: *giggles...Hop on Pop*
conanlee:: you're right meme
Jeremy1952:: Well, I can't say he actually LIED in his book Michael, but there was huge failure to check sources
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - and our only hope with China would be to use Nukes
ZombieHatesYou:: Sure, it's funny...but it's also sad, because it's true.
Genryu:: mind you China's done it's fair share of 'trampling' too
cinnamon321:: I agree Chris---China is a dark horse.
Chris OConnor:: true
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm not saying Gore was perfect, just that he never got a fair hearing, the press mangled him
ZombieHatesYou:: We are a media saturated country, assaulted by so many images...we end up clinging to the ones that look the best to us, regardless of what the actual content is.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie--exactly. We're trained to do that.
Chris OConnor:: China is huge....and the sleeping giant of modern times
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: advertisers know psychology better than we do
conanlee:: Richard, have you even been to China?
Chris OConnor:: Conan - any comments?
Richard Dawkins:: I'm worried about the amount of money candidates are allowed to spend advertising
Gluepot and Fatass:: We really ought to read some Chomsky
Richard Dawkins:: No I haven't been to China
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I wonder if it's possible to run a campaign online and win
Meme Wars:: Yes, and because China had the wisdom of the one child policy, it economy will take off.
Chris OConnor:: I would read Chomsky
ZombieHatesYou:: Without the advertising, the voters would actually have to think...and we can't have that, now, can we?
conanlee:: well, I'm wondering about how do you think China...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: if you got millions of people to print out your essays and post them in public
Chris OConnor:: Michael - wow...excellent question
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I bet I could do it if I was old enough and crazy enough to run
Genryu:: so what do we have so far - themes of anti intellectualism, a politically powerful Christian right and an opposition that is dismissed as weak because of it's very liberalism
Meme Wars:: Ultimate Campaign reform. No adds, no pamphlets.
Chris OConnor:: Michael - it couldn't be 100% online, or you would miss out on reaching the lower income population
Jeremy1952:: One of the democratic candidates had a very successful online fundraising, raised about double
ZombieHatesYou:: This is how the world ends, Genryu
Jeremy1952:: what was expected
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: Chris--you'd have people print things out
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: they'd know you entirely through your writing
Chris OConnor:: Michael - Ahhh...you have this planned out
Meme Wars:: A government pub would go out to all monthly, with each candidate having a say.
Jeremy1952:: Spend your campaign funds on handing out free computers first, Chris
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: maybe a single tv ad if you collected the money
Chris OConnor:: I say Richard Dawkins for President.
Jeremy1952:: I think a computer in every home is more important than a chicken in every pot anyway
Genryu:: and why are candidates allowed to spend so much on advertising in the US? It seems the very opposite of freedom of speech to me
conanlee:: Richard, do you think nuclear weapons could be banned at least?
ZombieHatesYou:: Who needs food when you have the information superhighway?
Richard Dawkins:: I thought Bush promised McCain (spelling) he would reform that if elected?
Jeremy1952:: Lol, I'd certainly support him.... or even Blair! But there is that little citizenship detail
Gluepot and Fatass:: What do you guys think of Nader?
Meme Wars:: Reform what?
Jeremy1952:: Richard, Bush is getting around it by simply declining public money
ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: I think, like I said before, because we are a country built around the media. TV is everywhere you go, the billboards are huge, you never escape it.
Meme Wars:: Campaign Finance?
Jeremy1952:: The reforms only apply to those who take public money,
Jeremy1952:: so he just spends his own
Richard Dawkins:: Reform the amount allowed to be spent on election campaigns. McCain agreed to support Bush if he would reform that. he has broken his promise
Meme Wars:: Gore lost due to Nadar.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: promises don't matter if the public doesn't remember them
ZombieHatesYou:: If there was a cap put on the amount of advertising the politicians could do, then no one would know about any of them. We're not trained to learn without the television over here.
Richard Dawkins:: Nadar has a lot to answer for
Meme Wars:: If we had Australia voting system, Nadar would have receive his 5% and Gore would be president today.
cinnamon321:: To me Perot and Nader were political puppets used so a candidate would lose votes.
Chris OConnor:: Perot wrote some interesting, yet simplistic books.
Genryu:: so why isn't something done about health care, about gun control, about issues like that? There's a kind of obscenity about pointing the finger at 'terrorists' and fundamentalists and pushing the agenda of a country that can't even bring basic health care to those most in need and where those in power can virtually monopolise the media
Richard Dawkins:: Some sort of proportional representation would be a great boon
Genryu:: same here in the UK RD
Richard Dawkins:: Yes Genryu
Jeremy1952:: Massimo Pigliucci wrote a great article about alternative ways of running elections
Meme Wars:: Australia system has a person vote for all candidates and rate by choice, 1 top and then downward.
ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: Because that would ruin the American way...the idea that if you work hard, you win. Even though many of us break our backs forever and never get anywhere.
Jeremy1952:: some which sound much more fair
Richard Dawkins:: In UK the Liberal Democrats would benefit hugely from proportional representation
Gluepot and Fatass:: I agree, winner take all, elections promote a two-party system.
Meme Wars:: If your candidate was eliminated, your vote would transfer to next choice.
Genryu:: and common sense might be allowed a chance to prevail RD yes lol
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: social Darwinism seems to be the favored social strategy of those who deny evolution
Richard Dawkins:: Yes, Single Transferable Vote
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: irony is fun
Richard Dawkins:: MG, excellent point
ZombieHatesYou:: We all love irony, Michael...
Jeremy1952:: One problem is the situation of someone who prefers neither... Gore is a born again Christian, not likely to represent me
Jeremy1952:: And we've forgotten his running mate, a Jewish fundy
cinnamon321:: Gore is a born again Christian? Wow!
ZombieHatesYou:: I hope to see a President in my lifetime that's not Christian.
Meme Wars:: Our Senate is useless. Keep 50 Senator to represent states, and then have the other 50 candidates at large for proportional representation.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think Gore is quite as likely to use religion as a political tool, beyond the usual "hey, I'm a family guy, vote for me"
Gluepot and Fatass:: The point is, he's preferable to bush
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - atheists will probably not have fair representation in politics for the next 100 years
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: a Buddhist president would be nice
Richard Dawkins:: Is that true about Gore. I thought he was far too intelligent to be a real Christian (as opposed to pretending to be one to get votes)
ZombieHatesYou:: I wonder if that can happen, what with the Christian hegemony we've got to deal with.
Genryu:: lol Michael but I'm biased on that one
Jeremy1952:: True, Chris
Chris OConnor:: RD - He is probably a faker
ZombieHatesYou:: There you go, Michael. Genryu, come over here and pretend to be American so you can be President.
conanlee:: Richard, how do you think about China?
Jeremy1952:: Well Dr. D, he was pretty open about it. And pretending to be one to get votes , you'd want to be less specific than he was;
Richard Dawkins:: Brights outnumber Jews tenfold. Yet politicians are terrified of the Jewish lobby and treat atheists with contempt
Genryu:: no I'd be intolerant of Christians and not spend a penny on defense lol
conanlee:: tell us your opinions
Jeremy1952:: he associated himself with a particular sect
Gluepot and Fatass:: You have to be "religious" to get elected...an avowed atheist would be torn to shreds
cinnamon321:: With the censorship stuff that Gore and Tipper Gore put into effect, I could believe Gore is a born again.
Chris OConnor:: Gluepot - true
Richard Dawkins:: Yes, but WHY, given that there are more atheists than any religion than Christian
Jeremy1952:: Maybe we should use the anti porn laws that Tipper and Al love so much to get those disgusting statues
Jeremy1952:: of a naked guy on a torture device out of public places
Chris OConnor:: We will have a women or black president well before an atheist president.
Richard Dawkins:: There are 30 million Brights and only about 3 million Jews in USA
conanlee:: how many atheists are there in America?
Meme Wars:: One of the Democratic candidates deliberately left out religion in his speech. What is his name?
ZombieHatesYou:: Gluepot: I think that's sad. I would think that an atheist President would end up much more sensible and logical about running this country...take a look at what Bush has done regarding 9/11 and Iraq...turned it into this God thing. He even had to bring God into the space shuttle wreck.
Jeremy1952:: Well, Dr Dawkins, part of it is that "atheist" is an inherently negative position; Chris and I are both atheists,
Genryu:: damn good question RD and it confuses the hell out of me
Jeremy1952:: but our politics are diametrically opposed
Richard Dawkins:: If you count 'agnostics' and 'secular' there are 29 million of us. Brights
Gluepot and Fatass:: It's easy to sympathize with the Jewish lobby, atheists are stigmatized
Chris OConnor:: RD - We need 1 very charismatic leader for the Bright movement....to unify and bring Brights "out of the closet"
Richard Dawkins:: Call yourselves Brights
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: what is the Bright movement
Richard Dawkins:: Atheists under another name. To try to overcome the stigma
Jeremy1952:: I call myself a "Stochastic Newtonian Godless Jew"; but I must admit, "Bright" has a better ring to it
Chris OConnor:: RD - Are you assuming that role? Or just an endorser? You could be the key.
Meme Wars:: I'm a Bright!
Gluepot and Fatass:: I don't feel comfortable with that term--Bright
Richard Dawkins:: I'm a Bright
Chris OConnor:: I'm a Bright
Richard Dawkins:: www.the-brights.net/
ZombieHatesYou:: I dunno about having to slap a new name on an old idea to get people to pay attention to it...
cinnamon321:: Its just like the movie Contact when they don't want to send Eleanor Arroway to Vega because she's an atheist. That's the kind of response an atheist running for public office would get I think.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I'm a Dim cos I don't know what the Brights are
Meme Wars:: Even submitted a suggested symbol for the Brights!
Chris OConnor:: everyone...join hands and say "I'm a Bright too!"
Richard Dawkins:: I've just given you the web site
Chris OConnor:: I have the URL folks
Jeremy1952:: I'm afraid of it being taken as offense, in American jargon "bright" is the antonym for "stupid"
Chris OConnor:: So don't worry
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: That infringes on my personal space issues and sounds quite a lot like dirty hippie stuff. Please desist.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - it is
conanlee:: I'm thinking about how to say "bright" in Chinese
Chris OConnor:: LOL
Jeremy1952:: Although it is true.... I'm not sure such a label will win many friends
Richard Dawkins:: Here is my Brights article
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: Right...
Richard Dawkins:: books.guardian.co.uk/revi...12,00.html
Chris OConnor:: Conan - Wow! You could be our link to China.
Genryu:: it's a way of changing some of the 'baggage' attached to the term atheist Gluepot which kind of makes sense like gay for homosexuals. Interestingly though 'gay is now being used as a derogatory term by the very young who aren't even aware of the homosexual link.
Gluepot and Fatass:: I agree Jeremy...it is a bit combative by implication
conanlee:: Chris, good idea!
Gluepot and Fatass:: I would prefer something more inclusive
Chris OConnor:: Conan could help spread this meme to several billion people
Jeremy1952:: On the other hand, I haven't heard a better idea in the 30 years or so I've been looking -
Meme Wars:: Just because Brights usually display that characteristic doesn't mean you have to be bright to be a "bright".
ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: I've noticed that. I do it, too. If someone finds something annoying, they say, 'That's so gay!'
Jeremy1952:: And as with the gay analogy, we can change the meaning of the word
Richard Dawkins:: But you do have to be bright to be a bright, in our culture
Genryu:: that's so gay Zombie
ZombieHatesYou:: Oh hush up.
Chris OConnor:: Conan - You ought to read those articles, and we can discuss them on the forum "The Roundtable" or even in "Unweaving..."
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: blame south park
Meme Wars:: In our culture, yes.
cinnamon321:: I hear people say "That's so queer!" Or that's so Faggy.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "Dude, don't be a Republican"
conanlee:: Chris, I'll read them
Meme Wars:: Who would be fool enough to go against the majority unless reality dictates it?
Jeremy1952:: I dunno, Dr. Dawkins, I was raised that way. I'd probably be an atheist even if I was dumb as a dachshund
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "That's so Republican..."
Gluepot and Fatass:: I like Freethinker
ZombieHatesYou:: South Park will save us, Michael.
Chris OConnor:: Michael LOL
cinnamon321:: lol Michael
cinnamon321:: I like Freethinker too
cinnamon321:: I use that or humanist.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: freethinker is good
Chris OConnor:: I became an atheist after seeing too much ugliness in this world
Gluepot and Fatass:: Humanist is also very good...you can't be more inclusive and positive than Humanist
Richard Dawkins:: Freethinker and Humanist are both OK. but I'm giving Bright a try
Chris OConnor:: And spending too much time reading, thinking and learning about the natural world - this leads to atheism
Richard Dawkins:: I'm curious to see if the meme will spread\
Meme Wars:: Christianity is so irrational. I used to be a fundamentalist preaching in high schools.
Genryu:: well perhaps the truth is we can't always be inclusive. While part of me is uncomfortable with some of what I've read and heard about the term Brights, at the same time there is the possible consequence of being too passive in the face of a rising tide of fundamentalism, simple mindedness and anti intellectualism/anti scientific thought
Meme Wars:: But I also had a love for science and logic.
Gluepot and Fatass:: wow meme
Chris OConnor:: RD - Is there a banner I could put on our web site?
ZombieHatesYou:: It might just be my habit of improperly permuting things, but I hear Bright and I think 'Rainbow Brite' like the cartoon...sounds sort of like a joke...
Richard Dawkins:: Really, MW? What changed you?
cinnamon321:: For me, knowing a lot of psychology and reading about the brain causes a form of atheism.
Chris OConnor:: RD - a banner for the "Bright" idea
Meme Wars:: And the ministers couldn't answer my tough questions.
Jeremy1952:: Well said, Genryu
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I dunno if "Brights" would catch on in America, cos of the anti-elitist spin
Gluepot and Fatass:: Genryu, its true we can't but political efficacy demands we present the image that we are inclusive
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "oh, you think you're brighter than us?"
Genryu:: lol Birkenstocks and patchouli huh Zombie?
Chris OConnor:: Zombie
Jeremy1952:: On the other hand, Michael, we can tell someone they can be a bright... no matter how dumb they are
Meme Wars:: What started me down the path of evolution was a creationist booklet against it.
ZombieHatesYou:: Patchouli makes me physically ill. I'd make a terrible hippie.
ZombieHatesYou:: Or a terrible Wiccan.
ZombieHatesYou:: Le sigh.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: jer--doesn't that imply you have to be an atheist to be bright?
Genryu:: well the main criterion surely is that people think for themselves and don't get seduced by the irrational
Jeremy1952:: <-- former hippie
Richard Dawkins:: Those creation booklets are so funny
ZombieHatesYou:: Jer: Well, that explains it all.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think "freethinker" would go over better in American culture
Chris OConnor:: If I find a banner I'll put it on our home page, which will soon be redesigned.
Jeremy1952:: No, it contradicts it . Or rather offers a new alternative
Meme Wars:: I, as a Christian who didn't here much about evolution thought evolution made a lot of sense, in a pamphlet badmouthing evolution!
Richard Dawkins:: Well, Chris, you should talk to the Bright website people. they probably have some kind of logo by now
Chris OConnor:: RD - they are funny - up until the point when you realize that they are the sole means of "science" education for millions
Gluepot and Fatass:: The name itself isn't really what's important...the crucial point is the ability to ORGANIZE politically under one banner
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: someone should give out pamphlets on evolution
Meme Wars:: Yes, my grandfather smothered me with Christian cartoon pamphlets.
Chris OConnor:: RD - I will get in touch with them.
ZombieHatesYou:: Evolution is definitely not taught properly in American schools.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: "Have you heard the good news of natural selection?"
Chris OConnor:: Michael! hahaha
ZombieHatesYou:: I didn't know a damned thing about it until well after high school when I started studying on my own.
Jeremy1952:: There's nothing like really reading the bible to make someone an atheist.... my dad, for one
ZombieHatesYou:: LOL, Michael!
cinnamon321:: Lots of Christians believe that evolution happened.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: true jer
Jeremy1952:: He told me he gave up on religion when he read the "offing Isaac" bit
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I like quoting parts of the bible to Christians who aren't familiar with them
Genryu:: lol Michael
Gluepot and Fatass:: Even the pope concedes to it
Richard Dawkins:: I have to go. Guests in the house
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: especially ones that quote the quran to show how evil it is
cinnamon321:: Or that evolution is a plausible theory.
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: bye Richard
Genryu:: bye Richard and thanks
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: nice meeting you
cinnamon321:: Bye Richard, was nice to chat with you.
Richard Dawkins:: Good bye, nice to have chatted to you
ZombieHatesYou:: I think the main problem is we end up with the creationism vs evolution debate when it really ought to be more along the lines of creation vs abiogenesis.
Jeremy1952:: Wow, thanks so much for joining us, Dr Dawiins!
Chris OConnor:: When I was 111 years old I was given the key to a private library at this place I lived. On the shelves was a donated copy of Darwin's "Origins"
ZombieHatesYou:: Be well, Mr. Dawkins. Pleasure to meet you.
conanlee:: bye Richard
Chris OConnor:: omg I meant "11" years old
Richard Dawkins:: Thanks, good bye
Meme Wars:: As a Christian reading a Christian pamphlet giving evidence against evolution, I thought evolution made sense. That is how bad a case against evolution they have.
Gluepot and Fatass:: An honor, thanks for coming!
Richard Dawkins:: thank you too
Chris OConnor:: Take care Professor Dawkins...Thank you!
Genryu:: that says a lot Meme lol
Richard Dawkins:: Bye
Meme Wars:: By e.
Meme Wars:: It has been a honor.
Gluepot and Fatass:: /cheers
Chris OConnor:: Wer really appreciate you spending time with us
Genryu:: abiogenesis Zombie, sorry but what is that?
ZombieHatesYou:: Origin of life, rather than the evolution of it.
Gluepot and Fatass:: and what is dendrophilia?
Meme Wars:: You are my favorite author
Jeremy1952:: Technical term for the origin of life, Genryu
ZombieHatesYou:: Like, how did the world start?
Genryu:: aha ty Jeremy
ZombieHatesYou:: It's tree fucking, Gluepot.
Meme Wars:: This had been my greatest thrill!
Chris OConnor:: Zombie! LOL
Genryu:: lol Zombie
Jeremy1952:: Me too, Meme and Richard; I'll remember this day when my wedding anniversary is forgotten
Meme Wars:: Is Dawkins gone?
ZombieHatesYou:: Well, I answered less crassly before, but he didn't pay attention. =P
Gluepot and Fatass:: haha Jeremy
Meme Wars:: His name is still showing.
Chris OConnor:: He is still in the chat room...but probably doesn't realize it somehow.
Genryu:: your sucking up to fresh air there Meme lol
Jeremy1952:: Why, are you in a hurry to talk behind his back?
conanlee:: I think he is still ..I don't know
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - LOL
ZombieHatesYou:: Gossip hounds. I am ashamed to be in your company.
Chris OConnor:: Then again, this chat room is bugged.
Meme Wars:: Gotta get back to work. The place is falling apart without me.
Chris OConnor:: We have had problems.
cinnamon321:: Maybe he's coming back---I don't think so though.
conanlee:: Chris, do you have a chatting log?
Chris OConnor:: Meme - I'm glad you made it!
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: zombie, is this your first booktalk?
Gluepot and Fatass:: Did Sqwark ever show up?
Jeremy1952:: No Fatass
Chris OConnor:: Conan - I sure do. The whole thing.
Meme Wars:: Good Bye! It has been fun!
Genryu:: Bye Meme
Chris OConnor:: One person showed up named "Hyanxiety" that never chatted.
ZombieHatesYou:: No, huahua. I was here for the Bloom chat, remember?
ZombieHatesYou:: Be well, Meme.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - LOL that sounds funny
Meme Wars left
Genryu:: mind you this chat has left me with some questions which is good
Chris OConnor:: I cannot wait to read "A Devils Chaplain"
cinnamon321:: It was a pleasure to have Mr. Dawkins here. He seems like a very nice person.
ZombieHatesYou:: I thought Glory would be here, Chris.
conanlee:: Sqwark ... that creationist?
cinnamon321:: Is Sqwark a creationist?
Gluepot and Fatass:: I can't believe I overslept...I knew I shouldn't have stayed up until 4:00
Genryu:: yes if a tad unused to chat conventions lol. Hope he wasn't overwhelmed at times
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - I spent a bit of time talking to him at the conference and he is veru friendly
Gluepot and Fatass:: damn SWG
Jeremy1952:: I hope I didn't offend him with the Gould comments.... he really did say those things; I guess he was being nice
Chris OConnor:: Not at all like Stephen Jay Gould
ZombieHatesYou:: Genryu: I sometimes forget how hard it is to follow a faster chat...
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: dennett did a Bright article in the NYT
ZombieHatesYou:: Though this is awful slow compared to Religion:1.
Chris OConnor:: Stephen Jay Gould was an asshole. He was very rude to me.
ZombieHatesYou:: Good thing I type at 80 wpm.
Jeremy1952:: I found one of the quotes but decided it would be too argumentative to post it
cinnamon321:: Dr. Dawkins also seems very humble, that's unusual coming from such a famous writer/scientist.
ZombieHatesYou:: You had Gould in here, Chris?
ZombieHatesYou:: How did I miss that?!
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - as we grow it will have more and more people
Genryu:: yes but there you can iggy half the room and still not lose a single intelligible conversation Zombie
Jeremy1952:: He's not humble, just secure
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - No, I met Gould in real life and he was a pompous asshole
cinnamon321:: Ok Jer.
ZombieHatesYou:: More than half, Genryu. Curse Yahoo for torturing me with the illiterates so!
Jeremy1952:: Well Chris, I think this was a SmASHING success
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Oh, goodness. What did he do?
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - really? excellent.
conanlee:: SJG's book is a bit hard to read
Genryu:: Chris thanks for this yes and I hope RD enjoyed it too
Jeremy1952:: You notice he didn't' run out the door after an hour? Our guest was here 50% longer than he committed to! That's
Chris OConnor:: Zombie - He sat on stage during the question and answer phase and started at everyone...not saying a word. Then a minute later says "Well, its your time. If you want to just sit there that's fine"
Jeremy1952:: the sign of someone who wants to be tehre
ZombieHatesYou:: Chris: Sheesh.
Gluepot and Fatass:: Or of someone very considerate
Gluepot and Fatass:: or both
Chris OConnor:: Genryu - I am really happy Professor Dawkins agreed to spend some time with us...I wasn't sure if he would.
Gluepot and Fatass:: I lean toward both
cinnamon321:: Gould sounds like he had a major chip on his shoulder.
Jeremy1952:: It would not be inconsiderate in the least to leave at the time you said you would
Chris OConnor:: He is pretty big...and I don't mean physically.
conanlee:: Mr Dawkins is still "online", what's wrong with this chat program?
Jeremy1952:: He may have walked out of the room without closing the browser
Chris OConnor:: Conan - We have problems. I will have better chat software in the future.
Genryu:: perhaps he's afk Conan
Gluepot and Fatass:: no it wouldn't Jeremy, but it would be considerate to stay longer, even if you didn't have much desire to do so
cinnamon321:: Maybe he's still on because he's going to read what we say after he left...I dunno.
Chris OConnor:: Sometimes it says there are people in the chat room, you enter, and find nobody
Genryu:: that's religion 1 Chris lol
Jeremy1952:: Perhaps, Gluepot. I'll take it as a compliment to Chris
Chris OConnor:: Yes Genryu
Gluepot and Fatass:: Gluepot = Timothy Schoonover, btw
Jeremy1952:: I knew that, timothy
ZombieHatesYou:: Zombie = uh....Zombie.
cinnamon321:: I'm really excited that Pinker's book has been picked for our next selection.
Jeremy1952:: From your posts!
cinnamon321:: I knew that too Tim.
Gluepot and Fatass:: Wanted to make sure everyone was clear on that
Chris OConnor:: Professor Dawkins only agreed to stay an hour and he stayed about an hour and a half...I'm very happy
Genryu:: speaking of emptiness - I'm going to go and do less interesting things. thanks again Chris and been nice to chat with you guys.
Jeremy1952:: I'm looking forward to re-reading it, cinnamon; I planned to anyway
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - me too! Are you reading it?
Jeremy1952:: Nice to meet you, Genryu
Chris OConnor:: Genryu - take care
cinnamon321:: I read it already awhile back.
Jeremy1952:: ooops too late
Jeremy1952:: He did a "Jeremy"
ZombieHatesYou:: I ought to go, too.
I'll tell him you said goodbye, guys.
cinnamon321:: I'll check it out again though. Refresh my memory.
conanlee:: Chris, someone tell me in America antitheist is not popular, is that true?
Chris OConnor:: I'm on Ch. 3 of The Blank Slate and loving it.
Chris OConnor:: Conan - I have never heard the term.
conanlee:: Chris, I mean "atheist"
Jeremy1952:: For many people here, conanlee, "atheist" is considered a very bad thing to be
cinnamon321:: All of Pinker's books are well written. Very informative if you want to learn about psychology. He takes all the junk psychology out for the most part.
Chris OConnor:: Conan - in America the term "Atheist" is not always understood by theists. They do know what you mean when you say "I don't believe in a God"
Chris OConnor:: Conan - Yes, you're right. Many don't know the word Atheist
Jeremy1952:: Theists assume that morality comes from 'god' (whatever that is), and therefore that atheists are immoral
Gluepot and Fatass:: There are many theists, who by very nature of their beliefs must dislike atheism
Chris OConnor:: I am very proud to be an atheist, but I do understand the desire to find a new word without the negative connotation\
Jeremy1952:: Or, they assume that everyone must believe in their delusion, and therefore people don't really disbelieve,
cinnamon321:: Well a lot of theists call atheists heathens or heretics. lol
Jeremy1952:: they think 'atheists" are pretending, to piss god off.
Gluepot and Fatass:: Agnostic is a lot less provocative to the theist
Chris OConnor:: Atheists are in good company. The majority of top scientists are atheists or agnostics. I don't discount this.
Jeremy1952:: oops sorry about the jargon.. "piss off" means to "make angry"
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I still think "freethinker" is the best
cinnamon321:: Yeah, I like freethinker the best too.
conanlee:: do they consider atheists have no moral?
Jeremy1952:: yes, that is their assertion
Chris OConnor:: The people who have dedicated their lives to understanding the natural world are almost exclusively atheist/agnostic. This has weight with me.
Gluepot and Fatass:: The only thing bright has going for it, imo, is that it is a fresh and unblemished start
Chris OConnor:: Conan - Yes, that's a common belief.
Jeremy1952:: I think that is one reason why they are so threatened by sociobiology
Chris OConnor:: I do like the word "freethinker."
Jeremy1952:: We are proving that morals and ethics have deep roots in our biology
Jeremy1952:: which puts lie to the importance they attach to their religious explanations
conanlee:: It's strange to me. In China "atheist" is a common term
cinnamon321:: I think that the name Bright will be used as an insult or manipulated by some and used as something to divided themselves from the rest of the population in an Us against them because we are superior way. At least that's what I'm afraid of.
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - to me morality is that which a social group deems beneficial to itself
Gluepot and Fatass:: I agree cinnamon
Chris OConnor:: Cinnamon - you may be right
Gluepot and Fatass:: Chris, I agree
Chris OConnor:: Morality is relative.
Gluepot and Fatass:: Morality seems to be justified self-preservation with benefits
Jeremy1952:: The Nazis thought killing all the Jews would be beneficial to their group... does that make it right?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I don't think "Bright" will go over well in America
Gluepot and Fatass:: some thought so, and that is what matters
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: people will think it means you think you're better than them
cinnamon321:: Morality should be based somewhat on humanities natural tendencies in my opinion.
Jeremy1952:: Forgive me, but morality has been the province of theists and philosophers for too long
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: amen jer
Chris OConnor:: The only universality of morality is where things apply to all people. We can all die and none of us really wants to die. So we create the more about killing.
Jeremy1952:: We now know enough science to begin to find out the reality underlying our ethics
Gluepot and Fatass:: the funny thing is, philosophers have been denying their right to it for a long time
Chris OConnor:: Jeremy - It is not about right or wrong...but about that which a social group thinks is right or wrong. Did that make sense? In Nazi Germany the people doing the killing probably thought they were doing something for the betterment of society.
Jeremy1952:: I think, Chris, these are questions that can be answered by research.
Jeremy1952:: Yes, they did
cinnamon321:: I hate to sound Machiavellian---but might makes one right with the masses. That's way religion is so popular.
Jeremy1952:: I think evolution is smarter than we are... I think we need to find out the purposes, goals that our propensities evolved to achieve;
Gluepot and Fatass:: What do you think research can tell us about morality, other than it doesn't exist Jeremy?
Chris OConnor:: I will need to leave now to get ready for work.
Jeremy1952:: then use our intelligence to modify behaviour
Chris OConnor:: This was fun guys.
cinnamon321:: bye Chris
Jeremy1952:: Really Chris; kudos to you again
Gluepot and Fatass:: later Chris
Chris OConnor:: I need to copy and paste this whole chat to a transcript forum
Chris OConnor:: I am worried that this last section will be hard to copy.
Jeremy1952:: Research has already proved that it DOES exist, Tim; what is left is details.
Jeremy1952:: And applications
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: I think our biological evolution may not have prepared us for the way we live
Chris OConnor:: If anyone wants to try to copy and paste it in to a thread in "Unweaving" please do. I have copied and pasted the first 1/2 already.
Gluepot and Fatass:: In what way Jeremy?
Gluepot and Fatass:: and how do you define it?
MichaelangeloGlossolalia:: we evolved in groups of 200 or so, now we have lots of subcultures mixed in huge groups
Chris OConnor:: I will stop chatting jow and try to copy the rest.
Chris OConnor:: Take care everyone
cinnamon321:: How we live is certainly a result of our biological evolution.;
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: you too chris
Jeremy1952: The foundation of morality is the instinctive tendencies that allow us to live as a cooperative species
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: cinnamon--but overcrowding and technology that we didn't evolve with
MichaelangeloGlossolalia: we have to adapt to our cultural evolution
cinnamon321: Our brains gave us the means to come up with the technology, and our brains allow us to adapt to the technology.
Jeremy1952: It's a major theme of "Blank Slate", so you'll get a better explanation there than I can give off the top of my head!
Jeremy1952: Anyway, duty calls...
Gluepot and Fatass: Jeremy morality must prescribe what *ought* to be, not was *is* or has been or could be, until it says with authority what we ought to do, it cannot be called morality
Jeremy1952: see y'all Thursday
cinnamon321: Bye jer
Gluepot and Fatass: later
Gluepot and Fatass: I think that we can find good, or better ways of living together, but I am skeptical if we can ever legitimate those ways a priori
cinnamon321: Too many ideals clashing
Gluepot and Fatass: at the same time, I don't think there is all that much need for an a priori legitimation, but we should not pretend that there is. "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,for there you have been, and there you will always want to be."