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Ch. 4 - The Grand Illusion

#15: July - Aug. 2004 (Non-Fiction)
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Mr. P

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Re: Classic Empire

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How about this scenario Rick:The EU gets very strong and very united. The new Arab Democracies are welcomed into the fold. The EU controls the oil and we find ourselves in not a strict military conflict, but an economic one as well. With the EU so strong, could they not fuck with US big time?Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain
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Re: Ch. 4 - The Grand Illusion

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Quote:The only place I think people agree on is Saudi Arabia, except that they don't want to offend Muslims and invading the country with Mecca and Medina in it would be EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE. I'm willing to wage the wars, fight in them, pay for them and make the hard choices about the Federal Budget that will occur over them. Are you? Are you prepared to do the Kennedyesque thing and "pay any cost, bear any burden"? Well, the problem with this is that Bush opened his tough-guy mouth and basically said that he would get to the root no matter what...but we can see that it is easier to talk tough than to actually take action. It should not matter, in Bushworld, whether or not we would offend anyone in prosecuting this war.I would be willing to do whatever it takes to get to the bottom of all this, but I feel that the direction the administration has taken is wrong. I do not support the current situation as is. The terrorists have us running around in circles. Afghanistan was good, Iraq was a distraction. So now we are paying alot, in lives and dollars, and just where has the progress been? And I mean regarding stopping the terror, not the ancillary benefit of liberating the Iraqis. And saying that 'we have not had another terror attack on our soil' is not valid. We have only had two (from al qaeda) over the last 10 years, tragic as they were. If we allow Bush to claim that he has made us safer because we have not been hit for 3 years, well then Clinton deserves alot for keeping us safe for 8. I am talking world wide.The war on terror could have been better served by focusing our efforts elsewhere. Iraq was the weakest link in the terror chain, but when the weakest link is at the end of the chain, striking it and destroying it does nothing to compromise the strength of the chain. It is just a case of the administrations 'fantasy ideology'. We had so much support after 9/11, and it was all squandered, not because of what we had to do to respond, but simply in the despotic way in which it was dictated to the world.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainEdited by: misterpessimistic  at: 8/19/04 11:11 am
MichaelangeloGlossolalia

Re: Ch. 4 - The Grand Illusion

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I think we're living in a world where the logic of power is slowly destroying the soul of man. Sanity depends on having a sphere of experience that is not determined by a dog-eat-dog game, a context in which a person can be a person rather than a machine. Individuals who stay sane will be those who can honestly experience their emotions, rather than locking them up in the dissociated right hemisphere, terrified of showing weakness or indecision. When games of power require that sincere feeling be replaced by cold, analytical thinking, insanity follows because the mind becomes split, the analytical left brain attempting to dominate the entire system rather than working in fluid harmony with the right. In any individual or nation, this produces a state of mind which eventually results in suicide. We will follow our enemies into the abyss, and we won't realize our mistake until the game defeats itself and there are no more playable moves that sustain a feeling of control and security. When everyone, everywhere, feels insecure and unsafe, a sea change will occur. Whether that produces a rennaissance of creativity and real solutions to difficult problems, or whether it leads to species suicide, depends on the choices made along the way.
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Re: Ch. 4 - The Grand Illusion

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Quote:Whether that produces a rennaissance of creativity and real solutions to difficult problems, or whether it leads to species suicide, depends on the choices made along the way.I, of course, take the more pessimistic view!Excellent analysis Michael!Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of Pain
Brother William of Basker

Re: Ch. 4 - The Grand Illusion

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Quote:What we learn from history, according to Harris, is that there will always be an enemy. He cites the Great War and the failure of the League of Nations to prevent future wars due to their inability or refusal to see that the enemy is not playing by the rules of the rational player. With all our intelligence, why can we not learn from history in ways that would bring about freedom from war, instead of anticipation of war?I hold it to be pretty self-evident that poverty, war, barbarism, etc., are mans natural state. So is utopianism, and interestingly, anti-semitism, but that latter would require an whole 'nother thread. I also hold it to be self-evident that reason has played very little part in the affairs of men, both to our great detriment, but sometimes to our good as well. Reason (as practiced by man, anyway) alone is no more a sufficient governor of men than anything else. It is terribly important, but not in the end, ultimate.
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Re: Ch. 4 - The Grand Illusion

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Quote:and interestingly, anti-semitismAnti semitism is man's natural state? Start the thread, because I need explanation on that one!Quote:I hold it to be pretty self-evident that poverty, war, barbarism, etc., are mans natural state.And as long as people ACCEPT that observations, we are doomed. the 'intellectual', the one with a moral core (not necessarily religious!) is the one who rejects this. We are able to think things through. We are able to realize what is natural, but to change it somewhat. We are not hardwired to do anything, if you accept the theory that genes codes the genotype and the environment codes the phenotype. We have the ability to make decisions. We have free will.Slavery is an acceptance of past ways of thought, is it ok to own slaves if one feels that it is man's natural state?Quote:I also hold it to be self-evident that reason has played very little part in the affairs of men, both to our great detriment, but sometimes to our good as well.I agree. There is no one panacea for all our ills. By true, honest and moral (not religious necessarily!) reasoning is a step in the right direction. But people are too ignorant to utilize reason well, that is the shortcoming! And the anti-intellectual movement serves nothing more than to keep the dumb dumb, so that they cannot understand the manipulation of those the use reason for their own ends, and not the ends of our civilization.Mr. P. The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.I came to get down, I came to get down. So get out ya seat and jump around - House of PainHEY! Is that a ball in your court? - Mr. P
Tiarella

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Quote:Anti semitism is man's natural state? Start the thread, because I need explanation on that one!Me, too! Especially as this would mean that anti-semitism is the natural condition of Jews.I think Brother Will meant something other than what he actually typed. Happens to us all.Quote:Can there be an end to history?Absolutely, Nick! Man destroys life on earth. No more human history!
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