Use this thread to discuss Chapters 1 through 3 or create and use your own threads.

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 4/10/06 4:51 pm

Just finished up the first three Chapters of Ender's Game, and I must say that I am impressed. I have only read one other Orson Scott Card title (Hart's Hope) and have been meaning to read more of his work. However, I have never had much appreciation for Science Fiction.

But with Orson Scott Card, the Science Fiction aspect of the plot seem to take a back seat to a humanistic and psychological story. The Science Fiction aspects are just window dressing around a character and story filled with interesting psychological and moral issues. It isn't about the space ship but rather what happened in the space ship. I think this is the ideal Science Fiction writers strive for but most come up short. Most come up VERY short. But this is great story telling and I think great story telling could occur in any setting.

I was quick to draw parallels to Star Trek, especially those works that had direct influence from Roddenbury. The starship is just the vehicle used to develop characters and explore various ethical and moral issues and the greater questions facing humanity today, not in the future.

Looking forward to the rest of this great book and those books that follow in the series!

Edited by: Chris OConnor  at: 4/10/06 4:54 pm

I like this book alot. It speaks to the isolation one can feel in a society that places high expectations on us all from early childhood. It speaks to the fact that we do not as a whole let our children be children for long...that our schooling is mostly meant to produce consumers and specialists rather than educating and teach how to think.

Ender is basically seen by everyone in the story (except Valentine) as a pawn, CREATED by the state through selective breeding. But Ender seems to have risen above that (I am not totally done reading yet, so I am couching my conlusions, yes) and has actually learned to control events and people to HIS will.

His biggest enemy seems to be his brother, and I have not gotten to the point where that resolves, but something tells me that his biggest enemy is himself and not his brother at all. The reason I say this is because he can handily defeat just about everyone else in the story either mentally or physically, but he lets his brother control him.

Or are these children all part of the same person in the end? Is Ender the strength that Valentine lacks or the conscience that Peter lacks?


Anyway...just meanderings. I am not happy with the chapter threads for this book, so I am not sure where to start posting what...my thoughts are more general with this book.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Create your own threads. These are just a helpful structure for those that want to post within a framework.

I just got my copy of the book today and it seems like a quick read since I'm already through chapter 3.

He doesn't seem like a 6 year old. I know he's supposed to be brilliant, but even with a high IQ I'd think a kid that age would be more, well, childish.

I'm interested to see where Card goes with the essentialist ideas in the story. Brilliant tacticians are born, not made? Such a heavy emphasis on genetics. And the mention of fewer girls at Battle School because of evolution. Interesting.

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The Gimp Parade

Quote:

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He doesn't seem like a 6 year old. I know he's supposed to be brilliant, but even with a high IQ I'd think a kid that age would be more, well, childish.

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Yea, I thought the same thing. Card makes a great attempt at providing reasons why Ender isn't very childish, but it is hard to believe even a genetically perfect child groomed for battle school and leadership could be that adult like in action and thought at age six.

But what exactly is Card trying to show us with this. I find it hard to believe this was a mistake on his part, as it is obvious the man knows how to write.

Is he saying that the children in this book are not given the chance to grow up? I mean, historically, children did not lead carefree lives at all...there were farms to attend to after all...so is Card point to a re-reversal of how childhood has become in our recent past? That these certain children in the school are so different that they have no concept of what childhood 'really' is? (By our modern standards). The only kid who refers to a somewhat more 'commonplace' childhood is Dink, when he reminisces about his brother teaching him basketball.

Are our children growing up too quickly? Is this also a comment on how the military takes kids and totally destroys their innocence? Similar to the pederasty and youth gangs of Sparta. (Of which I am no authority...but we tackled this in the LEE Harris discussion and I remembered it and think it might apply).

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Edited by: misterpessimistic  at: 5/2/06 4:03 pm

I just finished the first 3 chapters. I've previously read the short-story version, but that was when I was a teenager more than 20 years ago.

Ender doesn't seem like a 6-year old, even a 6-year old who's a tactical genius. Some authors, such as Card, have difficulty portraying realistic childhood perspectives. I recently read Chaim Potok's My Name is Last Asher Lev. Despite Potok's insight into human nature, which far exceeds Card's, his depiction of Asher as a boy (who was a genius of a different sort) wasn't credible.

The main thing that struck me thus far is the viciousness of the book's world. 6-year old Ender has already faced violent threats from his classmates and brother, before being taken into the military. It's conceivable that, when a society is fighting an extended war, violence permeates to the level of children, but it's still disturbing.

I think once the story reveals more about the concept of the "third," the viciousness will make more sense. I do not want to say more without giving away parts of the story. But I agree the childhood aspect is unrealistic even for one of the most genious children ever born.

I've been thinking about this from a writer's perspective. I'm not sure there's any way to show in a written story that a character is a six-year-old child, brilliant beyond his years, and still has the ordinary psychological needs of a child beyond how Card has portrayed Ender. In a movie, for example, we'd be constantly reminded of his age by his appearance and how startling his assigned tasks are for a kindergartner. But you can't show that in text without undermining the character, perhaps. You either make the leap with the author, or you don't. In the end, though I notice the problem, I'm able to trust the author and follow along.

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The Gimp Parade

I am not sure how relevant it is to see Ender as a true child. What can Card be saying about childhood and adulthood? Maybe Ender is a symbol? Of how childhood is a myth we have created in the modern world?

I am not quite sure about how I see this or the reasons for why it does not matter to me...but I know that in my mind, it is not really important that we accept Ender as an actual 6 - 12 year old.

Mr. P.

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

Once you perceive the irrevocable truth, you can no longer justify the irrational denial. - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper

Best thing to do when making a post with potential spoilers is to put a warning. This format usually works pretty well:

SPOILERS!!!



















and then begin your message down here.

oh, got it mr. p

Julian,

you've got a good point, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

However, Ender isn't acting like a 12 year old, either. He's acting beyond the comprehension of a lot of adults: particularly in thinking through who is playing what kind of games with him.

I probably couldn't do that kind of analysis until i was 33, if then. Heck, if now!

but we do know that ender is special, in many, many ways, which makes it almost believable.