You are browsing the forum as a guest. Please log in or register to access additional features.
Online reading group and book discussion forum
  FORUMS ABOUT BOOKS VIDEOS TRANSCRIPTS LINKS BLOGS DONATE CONTACT  

     Log in   Register 


BookTalk.org News
• Only 4 members are currently signed up to receive email digests. Click on the digests link on the right at the top of every page to learn more. This is a great feature for keeping updated on forum activity.
• Regular casual chats are back on the menu! Check out the calendar for the schedule.

Links & Resources

Community Rules & Tips
For Authors & Publishers
Link to our old forum
Our Amazon.com Statistics
Book Suggestions
Rationally Speaking
Donations to BookTalk.org
FACTS Book Selections
BookTalk Forum Statistics
Games 170 FREE Games


Chat Room

Enter the BookTalk.org Chat Room

Enter our Chat Room

Nov. 2008 Chat Schedule
Dec. 2008 Chat Schedule
Jan. 2009 Chat Schedule


Featured Videos

Dan Barker
author of "Godless"
talks about his deconversion


Dan Barker's Deconversion

Andrew Bacevich
"The Limits of Power"

Andrew Bacevich on The Limits of Power

More Videos

Author Interviews


Featured Member Blogs

Ophelia's Blog
Lawrence's Blog
Penelope's Blog
Frank 013's Blog

- View all member Blogs
- See the latest Blog posts


Amazon Honor System
Amazon Honor System Click Here to Pay Learn More

Donate to BookTalk.org

Please support BookTalk.org by making a small donation today!

Who supports us?


Related Links

Show us where you live!
BookTalk.org Member Map

Display Pagerank


Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P


 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Archived Book Discussions 2006-2007 -> A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin
Author Message
MadArchitect



Usergroups: None


Joined: 14 Nov 2004


Posts: 2609

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: decentralized
us.gif



PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
In chapter 3, IV Fromkin mentions two Brits stationed in Constantinople who reported to the Empire and helped shape British perceptions of the Middle Eastern situation -- Sir Gerard Lowther and Gerald FitzMaurice. He means to contrast them to more level heads like that of Wyndham Deedes, I think, but not much contrast is needed. Lowther and FitzMaurice are, in Fromkin's account, obviously poor choices for informants. They're anti-semetic and given to conspiracy theory explanations of events. It's even suggested that British support of Zionism was founded on their reports that a powerful cabal of Jews practically ruled the world, and that building a strong relationship with those Jews would ensure their support of England. Crazy stuff.

Back to top
  Facebook it
Loricat Loricat has been starred
Graduate Student

Avatar

Usergroups: None


Joined: 03 Mar 2005


Posts: 446

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Female



PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
Imagine what the situation would have been like had Britain had accurate, relatively unbiased information coming from its ambassador...

"All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."

Loricat's Book Nook
Celebrating the Absurd

Back to top
  Facebook it
J Seabolt
Almost a regular



Usergroups: None


Joined: 27 Jun 2006


Posts: 32

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
When reading the section about the Lowther and FitzMaurice report, I had some questions about it. One of these questions was how important were the misconceptions generated by the report. Another question was about the extent to which British misconceptions were the product of this report.

On page 42 Fromkin says that the FitzMaurice and Lowther report "won wide acceptance among British officials and led the British government into at least three profound misconceptions that had important consequences." The first of these was that the report "misled their government into believing that the Young Turks were controlled by two men." The second misconception was "that a group of Jews wielded political power in the Ottoman Empire..." And the third profound misconception was that the "...Young Turk leaders were foreigners, not Turks, and that they served foreign interests."

The first misconception doesn't seem to be much off the mark to me, and to the extent that it was off the mark it is understandable because it was and still is a confusing situation. On page 44 Fromkin claims that this misconception led to the British cabinet thinking that the C.U.P. was a "monolithic body" though he doesn't explain how Lowther and FitzMaurice's "controlled by two men" morphed into this "monolithic body" on the way to the British cabinet. Furthermore, Fromkin states on page 44 that "according to later reports--followed by most historians--[the C.U.P.] was ruled by a dictatorial triumvirate", but that in fact "power was wielded by the C.U.P.'s Central Committee of about forty members, and especially by its general directorate of about twelve members..." 1? 2? 3? 12? 40? Take your pick. Wouldn't surprise me if all those numbers were correct depending on the timeframe and the various issues on the table. That being the case I'm not sure that the Lowther/FitzMaurice estimate of two was wrong to any great extent. By the way, I don't recall Fromkin saying much else in this book about the Central Committe and the general directorate and all those factions ripe for British exploitation.

The second misconception has to do with the supposed control of the Ottoman Empire by a group of Jews. My impression of this period of European history was that such speculation was rampant. First of all, conspiracy theories were everywhere in part because conspiracies existed in many places. Fromkin mentions on p.39-40 that in Turkey starting around 1876 open political opposition was dangerous and "political life was driven underground where secret societies proliferated." This did not take place just in Turkey but was a response in many places to the reactionary forces in Europe that increasingly held power in the second half of the 19th and early years of the 20th century. And in an era where nationalism was an especially potent force, the influence of the international, cosmopolitan Jew was an obvious and easy default explanation for the unexplainable. All this was layered upon centuries of anti-Semitism within Christendom. I suspect that this portion of the Lowther/FitzMaurice report was more symptom than cause, and I don't believe Fromkin makes a convincing case to the contrary.

The third misconception dealt with the belief that the leaders of the C.U.P. were foreigners and served foreign interests. What underlies this argument, I believe, was the widespread, ingrained belief in the inferiority of non-Europeans--since Turks were not capable of sophisticated European political activity then if they engaged in sophisticated European political activity it is because they were actually Europeans or being directed by Europeans. Lowther and FitzMaurice were repackaging a prejudice of the day. Many readers of this report were predisposed toward this argument, and Lowther and FitzMaurice provided a few facts that reinforced that predisposition. In this case Lowther and FitzMaurice may have significantly strengthened this misconception, and the misconception may have had profound effects as Britain and others consistently misread the intentions of the Young Turks and, later, the intentions and abilities of Mustapha Kemal.

Back to top
  Facebook it
MadArchitect



Usergroups: None


Joined: 14 Nov 2004


Posts: 2609

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: decentralized
us.gif



PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
Very briefly...

Fromkin's assertions in regards to these two men and their report may not deserve defense -- it's impossible to tell without some secondary source of information -- but I do think some context is necessary.

J Seabolt: The first misconception doesn't seem to be much off the mark to me, and to the extent that it was off the mark it is understandable because it was and still is a confusing situation.

It's possible that Fromkin's implication is that the Lowther report disposed the British government to treat the Porte Sublime as a monolithic body ruled over by two men, and that this treatment essentially made it true, in terms of foreign policy, at least. It's difficult to say how broadly conceived their domestic policy may or may not have been simply because that's not the topic of the book. At any rate, if that's Fromkin's point -- that the Lowther report made it a self-fulfulling prophecy of sorts -- he could have made that clearer.

The second misconception has to do with the supposed control of the Ottoman Empire by a group of Jews. My impression of this period of European history was that such speculation was rampant.

The Jews have been the brunt of conspiracy theories more of less since the fall of the Roman Empire -- maybe before. That said, I'd have to see some outside references before I concluded that it was typical of European governments to build policy around the idea of a shadowy conspiracy of Jews who all but rule the world.

And in an era where nationalism was an especially potent force, the influence of the international, cosmopolitan Jew was an obvious and easy default explanation for the unexplainable.

It was only obvious and easy when nationalism was your primary consideration. The Lowther report may have been merely voicing a fear that was common in the upper echelons of British government; it just as easily may not have been. What makes it more damaging than the vague suspicions of domestic policy makers is Lowther and FitzMaurice's status as insiders in the Turkish political arena. If they claimed that the Young Turk party was ruled by Jews, that claim was probably accorded a great deal more consideration at home than would be the mutterings of your average homebody anti-semite. But where was there evidence on the matter?

What underlies this argument, I believe, was the widespread, ingrained belief in the inferiority of non-Europeans--since Turks were not capable of sophisticated European political activity then if they engaged in sophisticated European political activity it is because they were actually Europeans or being directed by Europeans.

Probably so, but Lowther and FitzMaurice should have known better. Again, the contrast to Wyndham Deedes is operative here. It apparantly was possible to get a good lead on what Turkish politics really were, but the two men responsible (as Fromkin would have it) for determining British policy weren't terribly interested in doing so.

Back to top
  Facebook it
J Seabolt
Almost a regular



Usergroups: None


Joined: 27 Jun 2006


Posts: 32

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
Let me start with a quick chronology. In 1908 unrest triggered by the Young Turks caused a reorganization of the government, but the Young Turks did not participate directly in this government. In 1910 Lowther and FitzMaurice issued their report about the Young Turks and their C.U.P. Also in 1910 Wyndham Deedes joined the Gendarmie and came to Turkey. In 1913 the Young Turks seized power. In 1914 Wyndham Deedes went to work for Mehmed Talaat in the Interior Ministry.

MadArchitect: ...if that's Fromkin's point -- that the Lowther report made it a self-fulfulling prophecy of sorts...

No. I don't think that is Fromkin's point. In the case of this misconception I think he is making the point that the L and F report was incorrect in 1910 and even more incorrect in 1914 yet was still misleading the government. I'm not convinced by his argument because I don't believe, given the uncertainty, he makes the case that this was a "profound" misconception.

MA: I'd have to see some outside references before I concluded that it was typical of European governments to build policy around the idea of a shadowy conspiracy of Jews who all but rule the world.

Me too. Not sure if you're referring to me or to Fromkin here, but I'm not making that point. If anything, I'm trying to make the opposite point. I see these speculations as a kind of background noise that people of the era got used to hearing, and Fromkin doesn't make the case that L and F's version rose above the background noise and had a broad impact.

MA: If they claimed that the Young Turk party was ruled by Jews, that claim was probably accorded a great deal more consideration at home than would be the mutterings of your average homebody anti-semite. But where was there evidence on the matter?

Are you looking for evidence from Lowther and FitzMaurice or from Fromkin or from me? As I said, my point is that Fromkin doesn't offer convincing evidence that these speculations had much of an impact. In Chapter 3 (p.43) he provides quotes from a work of fiction to help bolster his contention that the "British government never learned that Lowther and FitzMaurice had supplied it with a warped view of Ottoman politics." On page 92 he quotes Wingate at the end of 1914 mumbling something about "Jews, financiers, and low-born intriguers." Background noise.

MA: Again, the contrast to Wyndham Deedes is operative here. It apparantly was possible to get a good lead on what Turkish politics really were, but the two men responsible (as Fromkin would have it) for determining British policy weren't terribly interested in doing so.

As for Deedes, Fromkin is thrifty with details about exactly what intelligence he was reporting and when he was reporting it. Deedes didn't make it to Turkey until 1910. By 1914, when he worked for Talaat, he indoubtably was valuable. But when between 1910 and 1914 did he become valuable? We aren't told. We are told in Chapter 3 that he was virtually ignored. But on page 171 we are told that in December 1915 he was brought in by Clayton to became one of the early members of the Arab Bureau (Mr. Deedes goes to Cairo) where "his knowledge of Turkish affairs proved an invaluable asset", so somewhere along the way people started to listen to him. Fromkin holds Deedes up as the guy everyone ignored in favor of the Lowther and FitzMaurice report. But Fromkin never gives us enough information to rule out the possibility that Deedes, as just another member of the Gendarmie, was of limited value, but became valuable in 1914. This makes it plausible that there was then a time lag between his becoming valuable and being recognized as valuable that Fromkin exploits to make his argument in comparing him to L and F. This is pure speculation on my part, but it bugs me. Is Fromkin stacking the deck?

Back to top
  Facebook it
MadArchitect



Usergroups: None


Joined: 14 Nov 2004


Posts: 2609

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: decentralized
us.gif



PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
Devil's advocate aside, it bugs me a little, too, but I can see why Fromkin was light on the details. More expansive evidence is a matter for a more minute account of that particular episode -- the framework of the book doesn't leave all that much space for it.

So for the time being, I suppose I have to suspend judgement. If you're interested, I can make a note of it, and try to find some more in depth information of the Lowther report and the two figures behind it.

Back to top
  Facebook it
J Seabolt
Almost a regular



Usergroups: None


Joined: 27 Jun 2006


Posts: 32

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
Good point, MA, that this is just six pages out of six hundred. It remains to be seen how important those pages are to the book as a whole. As for doing more research on the topic, I'm always in favor of other people doing extra work.

Back to top
  Facebook it
MadArchitect



Usergroups: None


Joined: 14 Nov 2004


Posts: 2609

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: Male
Location: decentralized
us.gif



PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
I'll make a brief scan of the catalog system next time I'm at the university library. At the very least, maybe I can find a copy of the report.

Back to top
  Facebook it
J Seabolt
Almost a regular



Usergroups: None


Joined: 27 Jun 2006


Posts: 32

Thanks
Given: 0
Received: 0 in 0 Posts

Gender: None specified



PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Gerard Lowther, Gerald FitzMaurice, and the C.U.P Reply with quote
Can't say that I'm much of a researcher, but I have a hunch you'll have a tough time finding the original report. In fact, I wonder if Fromkin had access to the report. The page 41-2 material is footnoted as coming from a book by Elie Kedourie, which looks like it might be a collection of papers. After Googling and Asking around I found a mention of a Kedourie paper titled 'Young Turks, Freemasons and Jews' from the January 1971 issue of Middle Eastern Studies. Here's a link to the online source that mentions the paper: www.grberridge.co.uk/currsrch.html.

Back to top
  Facebook it
Display replies from:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    BookTalk.org Forum Index -> Archived Book Discussions 2006-2007 -> A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East - by David Fromkin  
Page 1 of 1


 
Recent Topics
» Intelligence
by Interbane on Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:07 am

» Ch. 4: The New Call
by Chris OConnor on Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:05 am

» Technological Singularity
by Interbane on Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:54 am

» Ch. 2: The Fall
by Chris OConnor on Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:28 am

» Do you plan to spend less this holiday season?
by Chris OConnor on Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:07 am

» Is an agnostic a cowardly atheist?
by Interbane on Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:58 pm

» Original Poetry
by Saffron on Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:40 pm

» Atheists are my brothers and sisters of a different faith...
by Interbane on Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:31 pm

» Write Your Self Well: Journal Your Self to Health
by mainecoast on Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:29 pm

» Lolita, part 1, chapters 10-15
by Ophelia on Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:17 pm




BookTalk.org Suggests


The Spirit Man by Sean Murphy

Stupid Reasons People Die: An Ingenious Plot for Defusing Deadly Diseases by John Corso, M.D.

Wife In The North by Judith O'Reilly

Coyote's Guide to Connecting with Nature: For Kids of All Ages and Their Mentors by Young, Haas, McGown

The Myth of the Oil Crisis: Overcoming The Challenges of Depletion, Geopolitics, And Global Warming by Robin M . Mills


Additional Book Suggestions


Related Links

Poll
Do you plan to spend less this holiday season?

Yes [3]
No [2]

You must login to vote


BookTalk.org is a book discussion group, also known as a reading group or book club. We read and talk about non-fiction books, as a group. Live author chats where book group members can interact with and interview authors are common. We often give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys booktalk.  Booktalk is a free online reading group that features quality book reviews, resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. Non-fiction chat, book forum, literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today. Suggest nonfiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to plug their books or ask for an author chat or interview.

MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEABOUTBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSLINKSBLOGSFAQDONATECONTACT

BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power: The End of American ExceptionalismLolitaOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape: A Leading Primatologist Explains Why We Are Who We Are by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year-History of the Human Body by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window Into Human Nature by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy: The Wealth of Communities and the Durable Future by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism: An Introduction by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael PollanI, Claudius : From the Autobiography of Tiberius Claudius, Born 10 B.C., Murdered and Deified A.D. 54 by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? The Search for the Best Way to Live by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza: Joy, Sorrow, and the Feeling Brain by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al FrankenThe Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From the Big Bang To the 21st Century by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of Nature by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES
Baloney Detection KitBanned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2008. All rights reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca