Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME FORUMS BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:51 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Ch. 5 - Eliminating Evolution, Inventing Creation Science 
Author Message
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame

BookTalk.org Owner
Diamond Contributor 3

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 13997
Location: Florida
Thanks: 1979
Thanked: 761 times in 605 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)
Highscores: 8

Post Ch. 5 - Eliminating Evolution, Inventing Creation Science
Chapter 5 is entitled, Eliminating Evolution, Inventing Creation Science. Please use this thread to discuss it. ::204




Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:47 pm
Profile Email YIM WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Pope of Literature


Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2553
Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Eliminating Evolution, Inventing Creation Scienc
I found it interesting that the fundamentalist objection to evolution was in part fueled by the association of WWI Germany to both Higher Criticism and evolution/eugenics. Just another one of those cases in which historical circumstances influence that public perception of a given idea. The same goes, to some degree, for the lionization of social Darwinism among American captains of industry. The disenfranchised lower classes certainly couldn't be expected to exhibit whole-hearted enthusiasm for an idea that was evoked by industrialists like Rockefellar and Carnegie to justify their own high economic status in contrast to that of the poor.

In an only vaguely related aside, I found it interesting that the business association of Dayton, Ohio was so instrumental in starting the Scopes trial.

There's a passage on p. 100 that I think emblemizes the way in which perceptions of the creationist/evolution debate are shaped. Scott writes: "Creation Science argues that there are only two views, (Special) Creationism or evolution; thus arguments against evolution are arguments in favor of creationism." I think this hardline view also contributes to the public perception of Creationists as a far more populous and unified group than they really are. It has the tendency to make it seem as though any skepticism about evolution is part of an organized Creationist campaign. Actually (and Scott's rather extensive list of Creation Scientists might mislead on this point), Creation Science supporters are a pretty small group, divided along the fault lines of certain issues, who make a very concerted effort to vocalize their views.

I also find it interesting that there's a kind of intellectual evolution going on within Christian science, where the constraints of the legal system form a kind of environmental pressure, acting much like natural selection. What I mean is, Scott points out near the end of this chapter that Creationist attempts to pass legislation tends to run in cycles that are characterized by changes in legal strategies. Equal representation, Creation Science, the omission of reference to "creation" -- these are subsequent developments, not part of one unified strategy. And the result, it would seem to me, must act both ways. It may change the Creation Science advocates chances of passing legislature, but the effect of changing the way you talk about a subject may also result in changes in the way you think about it. I wonder if Creation Scientists still think of Special Creation the way they did 100, 50, even 10 years ago.




Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:14 pm
Profile


Post Re: Ch. 5 - Eliminating Evolution, Inventing Creation Scienc
It is quite interesting that the political spectrums supporting evolution have reversed in modern society. Scott points out that Bryan, the one arguing against evolution in the Scopes trial, was a LIBERAL, and that part of the reason for denying evolution in those days was for its association with authoritarian evils like eugenics and laissez-faire capitalism. So it is odd to think that back in the day conservatives and those on the far right of the political compass were misrepresenting evolution as "survival of the fittest" as if it somehow justified exploitation, and that nowadays they tend to deny evolution and favor misrepresenting it as a "theory in crisis". I had not realized that evolution had been seen as such a social evil to this extent. Who knew Social Darwinism had made such a stir?

I also had not realized the communist threat had jump-started the teaching of evolution by scaring people into doing good science. This explanation sounds quite plausible, too. It seems to me that people must be desperate and fearful of some lingering enemy across the seas to respect science to such a degree that we'd want to teach evolution! I never thought I'd say this, but now I'll say it: Thank God for Communists! Where would we be without them? Would we be teaching the "talking snake" theory?

As far as the "three prongs" issue goes in determining whether something is unconstitutional, I feel a little uneasy. I understand the purpose of the separation of church and state, but I'm not so sure that should be the main reason it isn't taught. It shouldn't be taught, in my mind, because it is simply not scientific and there is no evidence for it. We don't need to invoke any separation of church and state to make the case against creationism, in other words. One can simply refuse to teach it on pedagogical grounds, and that should be that.




Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:07 pm
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
The Pope of Literature


Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2553
Location: decentralized
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Ch. 5 - Eliminating Evolution, Inventing Creation Scienc
Saint Gasoline: I had not realized that evolution had been seen as such a social evil to this extent. Who knew Social Darwinism had made such a stir?

If you're interested in the history of evolution theory's adoption by conservative capitalists, you might check out Richard Hofstadter's "Social Darwinism in American Thought". Hofstadter is a fascinating historian in his own right, and the book is one of the classics in the history of science's effect on popular culture. The more you read about the Creationist/Darwinist controversy, the more you're likely to run into references to that book.

I also had not realized the communist threat had jump-started the teaching of evolution by scaring people into doing good science.

Sputnik is widely cited as the event that deflibulated our educational system. Later, the Asian economic come-back added further impetus, just as the cold war was ceasing to influence us as much.

As far as the "three prongs" issue goes in determining whether something is unconstitutional, I feel a little uneasy. I understand the purpose of the separation of church and state, but I'm not so sure that should be the main reason it isn't taught.

I'm fine with that idea, although, I think we may differ on the big reasons for why Creationism shouldn't be taught in schools. My reason is that our system is founded in large part on not confusing secular institutions with religious institutions. To some degree, I think that distinction is artificial, but its artificiality is no reason to abandon the attempt.

It shouldn't be taught, in my mind, because it is simply not scientific and there is no evidence for it.

The problem with that, I think, is that the pedological grounds are premised in large part on the idea of a secular society. That is to say, that we might not find it so easy to insist on a particular criteria for what does and does not qualify as scientific if we don't assume from square one some hard and fast rule for distinguishing the secular from the religious.




Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:26 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:


BookTalk.org Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Featured Book Suggestions
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
    

Love to talk about books but don't have time for our book discussion forums? For casual book talk join us on Facebook.

Featured Books

Books by New Authors



Booktalk.org on Facebook 



BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.


Navigation 
MAIN NAVIGATION

HOMEFORUMSBOOKSTRANSCRIPTSOLD FORUMSADVERTISELINKSFAQDONATETERMS OF USEPRIVACY POLICY

BOOK FORUMS FOR ALL BOOKS WE HAVE DISCUSSED
Sense and Goodness Without God - by Richard CarrierFrankenstein - by Mary ShelleyThe Big Questions - by Simon BlackburnScience Was Born of Christianity - by Stacy TrasancosThe Happiness Hypothesis - by Jonathan HaidtA Game of Thrones - by George R. R. MartinTempesta's Dream - by Vincent LoCocoWhy Nations Fail - by Daron Acemoglu and James RobinsonThe Drowning Girl - Caitlin R. KiernanThe Consolations of the Forest - by Sylvain TessonThe Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion: The Mormons - by David FitzgeraldA Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - by James JoyceThe Divine Comedy - by Dante AlighieriThe Magic of Reality - by Richard DawkinsDubliners - by James JoyceMy Name Is Red - by Orhan PamukThe World Until Yesterday - by Jared DiamondThe Man Who Was Thursday - by by G. K. ChestertonThe Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven PinkerLord Jim by Joseph ConradThe Hobbit by J. R. R. TolkienThe Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas AdamsAtlas Shrugged by Ayn RandThinking, Fast and Slow - by Daniel KahnemanThe Righteous Mind - by Jonathan HaidtWorld War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War by Max BrooksMoby Dick: or, the Whale by Herman MelvilleA Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer EganLost Memory of Skin: A Novel by Russell BanksThe Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. KuhnHobbes: Leviathan by Thomas HobbesThe House of the Spirits - by Isabel AllendeArguably: Essays by Christopher HitchensThe Falls: A Novel (P.S.) by Joyce Carol OatesChrist in Egypt by D.M. MurdockThe Glass Bead Game: A Novel by Hermann HesseA Devil's Chaplain by Richard DawkinsThe Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph CampbellThe Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor DostoyevskyThe Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark TwainThe Moral Landscape by Sam HarrisThe Decameron by Giovanni BoccaccioThe Road by Cormac McCarthyThe Grand Design by Stephen HawkingThe Evolution of God by Robert WrightThe Tin Drum by Gunter GrassGood Omens by Neil GaimanPredictably Irrational by Dan ArielyThe Wind-Up Bird Chronicle: A Novel by Haruki MurakamiALONE: Orphaned on the Ocean by Richard Logan & Tere Duperrault FassbenderDon Quixote by Miguel De CervantesMusicophilia by Oliver SacksDiary of a Madman and Other Stories by Nikolai GogolThe Passion of the Western Mind by Richard TarnasThe Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le GuinThe Genius of the Beast by Howard BloomAlice's Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll Empire of Illusion by Chris HedgesThe Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner The Extended Phenotype by Richard DawkinsSmoke and Mirrors by Neil GaimanThe Selfish Gene by Richard DawkinsWhen Good Thinking Goes Bad by Todd C. RinioloHouse of Leaves by Mark Z. DanielewskiAmerican Gods: A Novel by Neil GaimanPrimates and Philosophers by Frans de WaalThe Enormous Room by E.E. CummingsThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeGod Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher HitchensThe Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Dreams From My Father by Barack Obama Paradise Lost by John Milton Bad Money by Kevin PhillipsThe Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson BurnettGodless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists by Dan BarkerThe Things They Carried by Tim O'BrienThe Limits of Power by Andrew BacevichLolita by Vladimir NabokovOrlando by Virginia Woolf On Being Certain by Robert A. Burton50 reasons people give for believing in a god by Guy P. HarrisonWalden: Or, Life in the Woods by Henry David ThoreauExile and the Kingdom by Albert CamusOur Inner Ape by Frans de WaalYour Inner Fish by Neil ShubinNo Country for Old Men by Cormac McCarthyThe Age of American Unreason by Susan JacobyTen Theories of Human Nature by Leslie Stevenson & David HabermanHeart of Darkness by Joseph ConradThe Stuff of Thought by Stephen PinkerA Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled HosseiniThe Lucifer Effect by Philip ZimbardoResponsibility and Judgment by Hannah ArendtInterventions by Noam ChomskyGodless in America by George A. RickerReligious Expression and the American Constitution by Franklyn S. HaimanDeep Economy by Phil McKibbenThe God Delusion by Richard DawkinsThe Third Chimpanzee by Jared DiamondThe Woman in the Dunes by Abe KoboEvolution vs. Creationism by Eugenie C. ScottThe Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael PollanI, Claudius by Robert GravesBreaking The Spell by Daniel C. DennettA Peace to End All Peace by David FromkinThe Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey NiffeneggerThe End of Faith by Sam HarrisEnder's Game by Orson Scott CardThe Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark HaddonValue and Virtue in a Godless Universe by Erik J. WielenbergThe March by E. L DoctorowThe Ethical Brain by Michael GazzanigaFreethinkers: A History of American Secularism by Susan JacobyCollapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed by Jared DiamondThe Battle for God by Karen ArmstrongThe Future of Life by Edward O. WilsonWhat is Good? by A. C. GraylingCivilization and Its Enemies by Lee HarrisPale Blue Dot by Carl SaganHow We Believe: Science, Skepticism, and the Search for God by Michael ShermerLooking for Spinoza by Antonio DamasioLies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them by Al FrankenThe Red Queen by Matt RidleyThe Blank Slate by Stephen PinkerUnweaving the Rainbow by Richard DawkinsAtheism: A Reader edited by S.T. JoshiGlobal Brain by Howard BloomThe Lucifer Principle by Howard BloomGuns, Germs and Steel by Jared DiamondThe Demon-Haunted World by Carl SaganBury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee BrownFuture Shock by Alvin Toffler

OTHER PAGES WORTH EXPLORING
Banned Book ListOur Amazon.com SalesMassimo Pigliucci Rationally SpeakingOnline Reading GroupTop 10 Atheism BooksFACTS Book Selections

cron
Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2014. All rights reserved.
Website developed by MidnightCoder.ca
Display Pagerank