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Defining delusion. What the **ck is it?? 
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Post Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
According to psychiatrists for something to be a delusion it must satisfy at least three criteria:

certainty (held with absolute conviction)

incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)

impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

We know that humans do not die from complications of multiple traumas and suffoction and then get up and walk around, meet friends for lunch, etc., a couple of days later.

To believe that the above is true would be a delusion.

We know a human female cannot become pregnant without first having sperm enter her cervix while she is ovulating.

To believe that a woman can conceive by having sex with 'God' is a delusion.

When a big bunch of people gather together and believe these things in unison and claim that other people who do not believe these absurdities are basically screwed, it is called a group delusion.















Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:39 am


Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
Group think is a powerful, scary thing.

I wonder how many really hold to their beliefs with absolute conviction and how many are really not swayed by compelling arguments. It seems that many religious people, at least many Christians, have doubts that they hide. So, is that really a delusion?




Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:14 am


Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
If they can be swayed, then they are conflicted, enough to examine their idividualism counter to the group belief.

This conflict, especially if both sides tugging are strong, could cause considerable distress, but, I think, is a healthy departure, and may lead to resolution of conflict, hopefully, by forming the conclusion, that delusions are ways to insulate self from the harsh realities of life--a way to control panic and fear, etc..

Before a child's forebrain is more fully grown, (and not, fully, grown 'til 30!) belief in fantasy figures is not delusion, because the logic needed to disprove the existence of say, the easter bunny, is simply not there, in most cases--save mega-genius kids: within, their, age dependent group of brain development, they are the front runners by sometimes several years.

An adult's need to be self protecting with a ridiculous belief is child like--why much reference in the Bible are to things childlike, I think, often implying the erroneous assumption that small children are 'pure,' because their helplessness makes them dependent on a bigger, stronger, wiser, whatever, to survive.

Of course, there are just boodles of contradictions in the Bible, reason enough for any rational person to disbelieve, or at least question, the whole thing anyway! i.e, (paraphrased, badly) "when I was a child, I thought as a child, but now I am a man, etc.." vs. "you have to have the purity of childhood to enter the kingdom of heaven."

People with weak identities are susceptible to this hoo-haw, and, or, are very often roped in to it all as a condition of marriage or familial connection.

So, yes, many don't really believe the crazy stuff, but still think that churches, over-all, are 'good' places, with 'good' people. This last, is evidence of false belief, not delusion, per se, since there are, some, good things done by churches and there are, some, 'good' people who are involved in churches, although no more than there are non-church groups doing good, or 'good' people, in the general population.

Personally, I think that Jesus, himself, was not delusional, but mislead by popular misconceptions of the day, and, was a real smart ass. You cannot definitively figure out when he was being figurative or literal from what was recorded on what he actually said. So when interpretations of his, supposed, words, turned in to doctrine, along, and along, it was just one more removal from whatever truth was there, originally, a la the 'telephone game.'










Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:59 am
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
Frank,

I place value on words attributed to ficitional characters all the time, even though the people don't exist. I'm not sure actual existence is a prerequisite for substance.

"Try not. Do or do not, there is no try."

--Yoda

Edited by: irishrosem at: 3/23/07 11:17 am



Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:52 am
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
Quote:
Halofrisbeechamp
Personally, I think that Jesus, himself, was not delusional, but mislead by popular misconceptions of the day, and, was a real smart ass. You cannot definitively figure out when he was being figurative or literal from what was recorded on what he actually said. So when interpretations of his, supposed, words, turned in to doctrine, along, and along, it was just one more removal from whatever truth was there, originally, a la the 'telephone game.'


While I agree this is a possibility, before I personally believe Jesus said anything someone is going to have to show me that he existed in the first place.

So far no one can accomplish the task of proving Jesus existed at all, let alone show any reason that I should follow the words attributed to him.

Later




Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:42 am
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
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Irishrosem
I place value on words attributed to ficitional characters all the time, even though the people don't exist. I'm not sure actual existence is a prerequisite for substance.

"Try not. Do or do not, there is no try."

--Yoda


Ok you got me there.

Master Yoda is the man! ::80

But there is a difference, we accept the fact that Yoda is fictional, and do not attribute his words as the end of all wisdom. As wise as he might be.

Had Yoda's words been unwise like "don't bother worrying about your health." he would not be so revered or labeled as wise.

Unlike some other fictional character I could name (Jesus)

Later




Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:08 am
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
You've made my point yourself. The value or worthlessness of these messages are in the words themselves. There are some things that Jesus is attributed as saying or teaching that I value. But that's because I recognized the worth of the message, not because I inherently value everything a person, or a ficitional character, says.




Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:21 am
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
irishrosem
You've made my point yourself. The value or worthlessness of these messages are in the words themselves. There are some things that Jesus is attributed as saying or teaching that I value. But that's because I recognized the worth of the message, not because I inherently value everything a person, or a ficitional character, says.

That is true of you and me as well, but many of the more wacky religious folk see it the opposite way.

Many of the religious give the words worth because they come from their messiah (no matter how ridiculous they are, or how fictional he may actually be) not because the words have any inherent value.

Later

Later




Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:37 am
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
Yeah, 013, people who are inclined to believe something because an authority figure said to, even, if it makes perfect sense, but not because it does, are lacking core identity.

That being good to people, actively*, caring about them (*instead of the theoretical kind) and wishing them well is BETTER than being greedy, competitive, dishonest or harmful, manipulative...You know, DUH! ....But you don't have to go some place and gather with other people who also think that your 'God' is the best or the only, or what ever lemming thing they believe, to think those things. Nor do you have to read them in a book written about or by anyone, whether those persons existed or not. In fact, I thought they were remarkably self explanatory.

The original idea in this thread was about delusion--a weak identity will seek approval from that which they perceive as more powerful than they. In this case, that would be, not so much 'God' but the big group of people who claim to all believe the same thing. Because (they perceive) it's kind of magical and special. That makes them magical and special by extension.

The delusion is often extended to the belief that the minister, or what ever the leader person is, is somehow more elevated in spiritual stature and therefore 'closer' to their 'God.' If one surrenders self and follows blindly, then if your life is screwed up, you are not really at fault. More childlike lack of accountability.

The point is, I think, such surrender is illness.

Edited by: halofrisbeechamp at: 3/24/07 9:00 am



Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Defining delusion. What the **ck is it??
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The point is, I think, such surrender is illness.


I agree.




Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:52 pm
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