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Richard Dawkins: Person of the Year 2006 - as per BBC 
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Post Re: --
I just want to say that, although I am very agressive sometimes, that I respect Niall and Dissident and their contributions here. I feel they are honest about what they feel yet not overly POMPOUS about it. Strong and opinionated yes, but I see nothing wrong with that.

St. Gas, although he may also disagree with my tactics, is also someone I respect.

I am a frustrated person and I know I need to tone down a bit...but this is how I grew up. I do try, but unabashed 'holier than thou' attitudes piss me off...and I will not hesitate to call the bastards out, theist or atheist alike.

As for making an attempt to learn what others say I (and others) are 'missing' in our understanding of religion, I tried looking over some theology books at the bookstore...trying to make some initial effort...but reading the blurbs about how MORE logical it is to believe in god than not...I tell ya, I was slamming books back onto the shelf and growling! lol

I will be reading the Ehrman book in the future. It looks good.

Mr. P.

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I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

The pain in hell has two sides. The kind you can touch with your hand; the kind you can feel in your heart...Scorsese's "Mean Streets"

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Edited by: misterpessimistic  at: 1/22/07 10:27 am



Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:01 am
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Post Re: --
Chris: Dissident, I find myself having to skim over your posts or else fall asleep.

Slumber works for you Chris...at least where Religion is concerned. It helps you avoid learning anything about the subject.




Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:58 pm
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And useless, hippy, toking, hug-the-world, mile-long sermons work for you DH. It helps you avoid saying anything concrete or significant.




Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:18 pm
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irish: And useless, hippy, toking, hug-the-world, mile-long sermons work for you DH. It helps you avoid saying anything concrete or significant.

I don't toke, wear my hair fairly conservatively, and think my sermons are actually quite short. But, imagine that, discussing religion and, whaddaya know, sermons sometimes show up! Perhaps if you exhibited any sign of attending, studying, reading, discussing the subject you might have expected that.

Frankly irish, you've already admitted that this is a subject you're not interested in studying: but are passionate in deriding. This is the epitome of prejudice. Is that concrete enough?




Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:30 pm
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Post Re: --
Come on guys...leave the angst to me. I accept my role and quite frankly, I resent anyone else getting bitchy around here.

Mr. P.


I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George Carlin

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:32 pm
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Post Re: --
LOL That last one had me laughing pretty hard.

I'm going to shift my focus to the chapter threads now.




Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:39 pm
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Post Re: --
Dissident:

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When you demand that all religion be kept out of the public square then you are thrusting values upon me.


This is utter bullshit. This is the total bullshit that we have rejected. Absence of religion in the legal public square has othing to do with thrusting anything on anyone. You are still free to pursue your religious values. However, litigating ANY religious doctrine is THRUSTING your beliefs on me. And by 'your' & 'me' I hope you take my meaning. This country is a plurality and was set up to be devoid of religious favoritism to any one religion. No one set of religious anything should be included in the laws for all. The best way to do this is to leave religion out of consideration when forming laws for all.

Period.

Now there are values that the religious SHARE with the non, and we should focus on those values. There are also values of religion (Holy War, proselytizing and ostracizing) that we should steer away from.

I will get to the rest later.

Mr. P


I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George Carlin

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:45 pm
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D.H.: Nor should it be an irishroseocracy either, even though you may already live in one.

Egads, D.H.! After some of your random, wandering posts I've slogged through on this forum, I find it comical and a bit alarming that you think I live in my own world. But yes, I'm sure, I'm the one that is not in touch with reality.

Your derisive term infection is taken right out of the very worst of religious history: keeping the pure, clean, and othodox beliefs safe from the heretical, filthy, and impure heathen...you really should 'fess up to just who's shoulders you are standing on.

I have no idea what your random collection of words mean here, except to note you have a fetish for people standing on other peoples' shoulders. You've mentioned that acrobatic talent quite a few times that I've read. I'm guessing this is some sort of reference trying to place me in cahoots with religious fundies again...that's an old comparison for you.

your fanatcism for sanitary secularism betrays its own delusion.

It is not fanaticism. The U.S. is a secular government, built on a secular foundation with a secular document. Religious infection in that secular world has only caused problems and should be eliminated. That is not a delusion, it is truth.

Fine. You gave it another five years and, then, sealed the books. Quite the adult approach.

D.H. I just want to note that, despite the heated conversations we've engaged in, I haven't questioned your own spiritual journey, or whether you employed an "adult approach" to that journey. I think you often write ridiculously, but I have never called your spiritual choices ridiculous. I find that a bit too personal to meddle with, but congrats to you for having no qualms in going there.

No, I just don't see how anyone can care deeply about humanity and be so narrowminded about religion...another hint about delusion I believe.

Well, I am no more narrow minded about religion in choosing to not believe in a god than you are narrow minded in choosing to do so. But even if you like to think of me as such, get your head around a narrow minded person being deeply concerned about humanity, specifically social justice, because I am.

Well, considering myth includes langauage, art, dance, music, lierature, poetry, dress, ritual, suffering , joy, war, burial, birthing ceremonies, morality....jeezus, quite a bit of everything that has to do with being human...

As I said, religion has had vast significance. It, however, should have no significance in secular government, as I continue to maintain. And it should not be assumed that it need always have the social significance it had in the past.

I think the Illiad and Oddyssey could teach our representatives a great deal about the price of hubris and the terrors of war

Possibly, in the way all good literature has great lessons within. I, however, don't want Joe Lieberman citing Homer on the Senate floor.




Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:19 am
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Post Re: --
I think I'm in love with you, Rose. ::124

::80 You seem to make me smile or laugh in ever single post. And I'm not smiling and laughing because you say something silly. You will make an awesome attorney.




Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:35 am
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Post Re: --
Guys, you're all really interesting. Really.

But you know what, I'd believe that people should show and not tell.

Take a step back. Remember who you are and what reason you have for being here. This is a message board. There will be people who irk you. There will be people who don't "get" you. But there is a reason we have a PM system. These type of conversations are better reserved for a private section because that way, there's no gallery, less chance that one individual will feel the need to counter-attack and a better chance that everybody else can discuss the matter.

There have been loads of posts over the last few days, and I haven't got a chance to read them all. Alas, many of the posts seem to be attacks and counter-attacks, and of course people defending each-other and saying nice things as well.

But none of these posts are really all that relevant to the thread topic.

Just breath already. It's only a message board. You're here for the fun of it, not to have an unpleasant catfight with somebody you'll never meet.

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Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:51 am
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Post Re: --
Oh...dont be so sure that the people who piss me off wont meet me! I have been doing my research...

;)


Mr. P.


I'm not saying it's usual for people to do those things but I(with the permission of God) have raised a dog from the dead and healed many people from all sorts of ailments. - Asana Boditharta (former booktalk troll)

The one thing of which I am positive is that there is much of which to be negative - Mr. P.

What is all this shit about Angels? Have you heard this? 3 out of 4 people believe in Angels. Are you F****** STUPID? Has everybody lost their mind? - George Carlin

I came to kick ass and chew Bubble Gum...and I am all out of Bubble Gum - They Live, Roddy Piper




Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:49 am
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Post Re: --
Chris: I think I'm in love with you, Rose.

Uh oh, Chris, what would your fiance say?::156

Niall, I understand your point. I am willing to let it go for now. But there is a purpose to my posts that would not be served in PMing D.H. I believe he has an agenda he wishes to serve through this forum. It is an agenda replete with his personal brand of preaching. I also don't believe he tries to engage in conversation. Instead, he picks out pieces where he can sermonize, and when they are not available, he sermonizes nonetheless. As I said, I'll let it go for now. But I intend to continue to highlight this tendency of his, until the powers that be here call me off. Atheists have too little vehicles free from the preaching, without having to unnecessarily read it here.




Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:31 am
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Post Re: --
irishrose: But yes, I'm sure, I'm the one that is not in touch with reality.

Breaking through the denial is a first step. Congrats, the rest of the journey lies ahead!

irishrose: I have no idea what your random collection of words mean here

I refer to your utilization of infection as way to describe the influence of religious ideas in the public sphere:
Quote:
I think I have, for a long time, stated that I don't care what people believe in their own lives, as long as they do not infect our secular government with their beliefs.


Perhaps you're not aware of the very long history of conflict between orthodoxy and heresy where both sides levelled condemnation and derision using precisely your choice of words: infectious ideas that pollute the purity and sanctity of our holy, sacred spaces. Of course, infections are not dealt with by way of simply changing ideas: they are invasive bodies and pathogens that require the carrier be quarantined or eliminated.

And this is a crucial point to where Dawkins is terribly mistaken, as are you: these religious folk are not going away, and they will not be silent in the Public Arena....if that is the case, and it is, then your very poor choice of words will be one more bit of fuel to flame a horrible fire. If these folk are infected, then what is the solution?

irishrose: I'm guessing this is some sort of reference trying to place me in cahoots with religious fundies again

You've shown your own fundamentalist tendencies throughout these exchanges...and your rigid secularism regarding the public arena will only further alienate religious folk who may otherwise share your political agenda, and it will certainly inspire counter-rigidity in those who do not share your agenda.

irishrose: It is not fanaticism. The U.S. is a secular government, built on a secular foundation with a secular document. Religious infection in that secular world has only caused problems and should be eliminated. That is not a delusion, it is truth.

Again with the infection....your metaphors are not even silly, they are dangerous. The US was built on a large foundation including a great deal of everything human...including religion. It's government is made of its people, many of whom have been and are religious. It's future will undoubtedly continue along similar lines of religious influence...some bad, some good. Your, again, rigidly narrow and dangerous fanaticism can only lead to eliminating these people from the public square: not simply silencing them...because they will not keep quiet...but what? This is your delusion, and it can lead to terribly dangerous consequences...and I think Dawkins is a large player in this shared delusion that secualr fanatics are trapped within.

irishrose: I haven't questioned your own spiritual journey

I think you have, and your appraoch has been tantamount to saying to me: Religion is an infection to be eliminated from the public arena entirely, all it has ever done is lead to harm and destruction, I personally think belief in God is bunk and organized religion is ridiculous....but, hey, I know it's important to you, don't take it personal.

If you don't see the questioning of my own spiritual journey in your side of this discussion, then, in your words egads!

irishrose: But even if you like to think of me as such, get your head around a narrow minded person being deeply concerned about humanity, specifically social justice, because I am.

I think you are deluding yourself then, to use an important term in the current mileau. If you are unwilling to learn how religions are aiding and participating and perhaps leading in many areas of human discovery and social justice...then you are allowing your prejudices to cloud your judgement.

irishrose: As I said, religion has had vast significance. It, however, should have no significance in secular government, as I continue to maintain. And it should not be assumed that it need always have the social significance it had in the past.

Religion has always had influence in our secular government, for good and bad, and wil continue to do so: at least as long as religious folk make up a substantial body of the citizenry. It should not be assumed that it's influence will dissipate...at least only if such assumption is seen more as a hope and desire and wish...and in some cases, a delusion.

irishrose: Possibly, in the way all good literature has great lessons within. I, however, don't want Joe Lieberman citing Homer on the Senate floor.

So, we should avoid these great lessons for our senate? And, I agree, Lieberman citing Homer...better, how about Homer Simpson citing Lieberman?




Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:52 pm
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Post Re: --
Nick, not that I don't believe you, but I figure we all need to watch out for Chris. He's the one with our IP addresses!

Irish, about Dissident, I probably felt the same way when I first came across the guy. But if he has an agenda, I can't see that he's furthered it in the years he has spent here. It tends to sound like he's preaching regardless of what he says, but I think that may just be his style. And yes, it seems like he's always trying to derail threads and bring them around to some of his pet subjects, but I think that may be beacause the guy genuinely sees a discussion of ecological theology and the like as logically following on from a discussion of the differences between 616 Storm and ultimate Storm or blue cheese and pizza. If the man were in a pub, he's see Chomsky and Anarchism at the bottom of every pint. I wouldn't really expect you to "buy" that, but it's only really something I've started to believe relatively recently.

He always reminds me of the San Fran guy in Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns who, in the face of being annihilated by alien invaders asks why we think our alien visitors are the aggressors when everybody else is wondering about how to survice or fight back? It might seem looney, but I think he is genuine about his lunacy. And every now and then, it's a little bit interesting.

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Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:46 pm
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Post Re: --
Niall, it's not just the derailing and preaching that drive me crazy, though. He seriously misrepresents people's statements, again to propel his agenda. For instance, I state that I believe religion should stay out of the U.S. Government. He claims that I want it out of the "public arena" and then mutates it to mean that I want the religious faithful holding rituals in their basements, hiding from gun-toting atheists. I have never championed this, and have spoken to the contrary. In fact I have stated that it is possible for religious people to separate their religious life from the professional responsibility to state, electorate, bench, etc. But D.H. chooses to manipulate my argument that this is necessary and possible into a claim that I want the religious to hide their faith. You can't state anything on this board with D.H. replying to harp on his agenda. So I'm giving him a piece of his own pie. But as I said before, I'm willing to let this one go and won't respond to his last asinine rant.

As for Chris, I'm not scared of him coming after me. He's in love with me, didn't you hear. Mr.P. on the other hand scares me in general. ;)




Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:09 pm
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