Online reading group and book discussion forum
  HOME ENTER FORUMS OUR BOOKS LINKS DONATE ADVERTISE CONTACT  
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:16 am

<< Week of September 29, 2016 >>
Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday
29 Day Month

30 Day Month

1 Day Month

2 Day Month

3 Day Month

4 Day Month

5 Day Month





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 
Before you begin reading... 
Author Message
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 528
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Before you begin reading...
Just some quick thoughts before you begin reading. Keep in mind that the First Amendment did not extend to states until the equal protection clause in the Fourteenth Amendment. So, technically, when you read cases that address state involvement in religion (this is prominent among religion and schools), the discussion should focus on the First Amendment viewed through the Fourteenth Amendment. Scholars often note that the Bill of Rights is now often used as a direct read on state limitations, when the Fourteenth Amendment should always be cited and noted.

This seems like a purely rhetorical point. However, Haiman himself notes that during deliberations on the Bill of Rights, Madison proposed an amendment that specifically prohibited states as well as federal government from establishing religion. Madison's proposal was passed by the House but failed in the Senate (8 ). So Congress did intentionally consider and deny the limitations on the state establishment of religion. Haiman also notes the work of Akhil Reed Amar who convincingly argues that the Bill of Rights Congress did not have "protection of individuals" in mind. Their concern was on an imposing federal government "interfering in any way with the right of the states to maintain the established churches most of them had at that time" (21). Therefore, though the Bill of Rights is often viewed as a tool to protect the minority from the imposing majority, it was drafted as a protection of the majority from an imposing government.

Much of this can be discussed in Chapter 2, but I just wanted to note that there is convincing scholarship that demonstrates the original framers, at least the majority of them, did not want the establishment limitations on religion extended to the individual states. That doesn't mean that it isn't right, or even unconstitutional, to do so today



Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:36 am
Profile
User avatar
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Junior

Gold Contributor

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 311
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 3 times in 3 posts
Gender: Male
Country: United States (us)

Post Re: Before you begin reading...
In fact, isn't it also true this applied to all the amendments in the original "Bill of Rights?" It's my understanding that the application of the restrictions in the "Bill of Rights" to the states didn't begin until the 1920s with the "Gitlow" case which involved a freedom of speech issue.

Incidentally, I just ordered this book, along with Deep Economy, so I do expect to participate in the discussion. I'm going to be away from my desk for about a week or so. By then the book should have arrived, and I'll get started reading it.

George

"Godlessness is not about denying the existence of nonsensical beings. It is the starting point for living life without them."

Godless in America by George A. Ricker




Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:02 pm
Profile WWW
Years of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membershipYears of membership
Banned

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 528
Thanks: 0
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post
Gender: None specified

Post Re: Before you begin reading...
Garicker: In fact, isn't it also true this applied to all the amendments in the original "Bill of Rights?"

There are actually different methods or theories of how and to what extent the Fourteenth Amendment should be incorporated into the Bill of Rights, which I won't get into (unless prodded, of course). What is pertinent to this discussion, however, is that the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees that: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws" (emphasis mine). Obviously this is a guarantee of individual liberties. However, the question becomes what do we do with Amendments that are directed, either in part or in whole, at states or populations? Are these also incorporated with the "citizens" and "person" addressed in the Fourteenth Amendment? It would be awkward to enforce rights meant to protect states against the states themselves. This is most obvious with the Tenth Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

As we consider the Congress's intentions with the First Amendment, along with the incorporation of the Fourteenth Amendment, note that individual liberties were not necessarily the express intention of every original Amendment. So how then should the Fourteenth Amendment be incorporated into the First Amendment



Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:18 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] • Topic evaluate: Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average.Evaluations: 0, 0.00 on the average. 



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:

BookTalk.org Newsletter 

Announcements 

• Resources related to Uncle Tom's Cabin
Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:28 pm



Site Links 
Forum Rules & Tips
Frequently Asked Questions
BBCode Explained
Info for Authors & Publishers
Author Interview Transcripts
Be a Book Discussion Leader!
IDEAS FOR WHAT TO READ:
Bestsellers
Book Awards
• Book Reviews
• Online Books
• Team Picks
Newspaper Book Sections

WHERE TO BUY BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

BEHIND THE BOOKS:
• Great resource pages are coming!

Featured Books

Books by New Authors


*

FACTS is a select group of active BookTalk.org members passionate about promoting Freethought, Atheism, Critical Thinking and Science.

Apply to join FACTS
See who else is in FACTS







BookTalk.org is a free book discussion group or online reading group or book club. We read and talk about both fiction and non-fiction books as a group. We host live author chats where booktalk members can interact with and interview authors. We give away free books to our members in book giveaway contests. Our booktalks are open to everybody who enjoys talking about books. Our book forums include book reviews, author interviews and book resources for readers and book lovers. Discussing books is our passion. We're a literature forum, or reading forum. Register a free book club account today! Suggest nonfiction and fiction books. Authors and publishers are welcome to advertise their books or ask for an author chat or author interview.



Copyright © BookTalk.org 2002-2016. All rights reserved.
Display Pagerank