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Trump Clinton Demographics

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Robert Tulip

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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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DWill wrote:Where you are just now is still unclear to me, Robert.
Politics is rather like yachting, where the technique to sail against a prevailing wind requires that the helmsman first tacks to the left and then tacks to the right in order to make steady progress in the desired direction. If you imagine that a craft is travelling in the direction seen during one tack you will fail to see the big picture.
My guiding light for politics comes from the Bible, from Matthew 25, where Jesus provides a seemingly contradictory endorsement of both capitalism and communism, in the conflicting parables of the talents and the sheep and goats. This sense of purpose tacks first to the right by admonishing slaves for failing to invest with bankers, and then tacks to the left by saying those who do not visit prisoners are damned to hell. The goal of stable prosperity requires acceptance of differing inputs which in themselves are in tension but which contribute to a higher aim.
The challenge now in world politics, it seems to me, is to see how the anger expressed in the election of Donald Trump can be channelled to achieve good outcomes, where it provides a legitimate and correct critique of the excesses of the liberal technocratic elite. As I mentioned recently, seeing how American cultural dynamism and resistance are described in Atlas Shrugged appears to me to be an excellent parable for current politics.
DWill wrote:I can be forgiven for wondering, with your posting of the photo, the admonition to keep the liberals out, and the admiration for white males, whether you had developed a thing for the alt-right.
Politics is a dialectic between wealth creation and wealth distribution, between liberty and equality, between right and left. My view is that this dialectic is best managed from the centre-right, as the locus of experience, order, stability, security and strategy. Allowing centre-left liberals to acquire state power gives too much oxygen to delinquent views about the central role of government which I characterise as neo-communist. There is much to admire among white men, who have been primarily responsible for constructing modern civilization by creating wealth.
DWill wrote:As for overcoming polarization, demonizing the liberals doesn't seem to be the way to go.
I agree, and do not consider that seeing the liberal social movement as unfit for government constitutes demonizing. There is an awful lot of demonizing of Trump going on at the moment. I hope that the hysteria can calm down so that some sensible conversations can occur about why the steady paternal-minded demographics had good reason to vote Trump in as US President.
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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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geo wrote: I do agree with Robert Tulip somewhat in that this election was a stunning affirmation of the democratic process. Trump is about as anti establishment as they come. The establishment has become mired in business as usual to the point that we have become an oligarchy, and neither side was very different from the other. Trump's election shows that the system works.

Power to the people.
I don't claim to have delved deeply into the controversy of the electoral college, but as of now I lean toward agreeing with a New Republic writer, who labeled it a "badly outdated institution." It is for its anti-democratic features that he stuck that label on it. The writer points out that virtually no other democracy has seen fit to interpose an institution such as the EC between the people's choice and the awarding of a high office. https://newrepublic.com/article/138631/ ... e-us-trump
Unfortunately, Trump has very few virtues besides being not Hillary. He has shown little understanding of our great traditions or how the real world works. Besides being anti-tradition and anti-establishment, he's also anti-intellectual, anti-logic, anti-reason. He's the very opposite of the great intellectuals like James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, and Thomas Jefferson, who wrote our constitution. Those who voted for Trump will almost certainly come to lose hope when Trump fails to deliver on his many promises.
I'm not even sure he's anti-establishment, geo. His cabinet picks so far have included several establishmentarians. Also, anyone who took as full advantage of the system as he did in his businesses (as he has admitted) seems to be an establishment guy. I agree that he is largely ignorant of our most valued traditions, or he just doesn't care about them because profit and winning are his only values. Anyone who tweets that flag-burners should be arrested and lose their citizenship probably has not read the Constitution or paid attention to court rulings based on it.

Some folks are breathing sighs of relief, because it doesn't appear that he will follow through with some campaign promises, such as banning Muslims, deporting millions, indicting Hillary Clinton, bringing back torture, and loosening up libel laws. He never should have said any of those things in the first place, so he gets no credit if he shows that he only said them for effect.

Unlike Robert, I don't think Trump will play into some dialectical drama in which opposites will catalyze a new synthesis of left and right. The issues with him are much more immediate and could have a quick impact. My list includes 1) His avoidance of abusing his office through promotion of his business interests. He must divest; 2) Whether his policy of economic nationalism is in fact good for the U.S. or harmful to its domestic health and international standing; 3) Whether he will keep his pledge to "unite us as one people" or will persist in the politics of division and baseless insult (e.g., "the crooked media"); 4) whether he will discover and uphold the value of facts and sound information, vs. declaring whatever suits him to be the truth, and 5) whether he will try to use the power of the executive (admittedly inflated in the Obama years) dictatorially.

I was saying the other day to a friend that aside from assassinations in this country, Trump's election looks like the most deplorable political event of my lifetime. It would please me if I'm wrong, but the signs aren't good so far.
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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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DWill wrote: I don't think Trump will play into some dialectical drama in which opposites will catalyze a new synthesis of left and right.
But that is exactly what must occur as a product of the law of cultural evolution, unless there is some catastrophic collapse.

Dialectic means a conversation or debate, understood as large scale historical clash and reconciliation of cultural forces.

The emergence of Trump is the result of a popular conservative reaction against liberal culture. A dialectical drama is a historical process whereby one ideological group implements its ideas, which in turn produce a reaction by an opposing ideology, and then a subsequent integration brings the conflicting ideas into a new higher synthesis that incorporates the valid and useful features of both sides.

If we consider the liberal thesis of political correctness as the proposition to which Trumpism is the antithesis, it is reasonable to explore how the virulence of Trump’s reaction is a function of how far the liberal ideas departed from a hypothetical central point of good governance. An extreme antithesis indicates that the provoking thesis was itself extreme.

Part of the problem is that people who are captured by an ideology, whether liberalism or neofascism, cannot see their own views as extreme but rather consider them entirely reasonable – their ideas have become like a mythical fantasy that gives meaning to their life. The subconscious power of ideology to blind its adherents helps to explain the mutual bafflement and contempt between the polarized camps of American politics, leading to fears that the center cannot hold.

If the Obama/Clinton camp had not provoked conservative opinion, the oxygen would have been absent from Trump’s campaign, and his ability to energise the neo-fascist elements would have been far less. The riling of the Republican social base is a dialectical result of liberals using power to overplay their hand.
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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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Robert wrote:If the Obama/Clinton camp had not provoked conservative opinion, the oxygen would have been absent from Trump’s campaign, and his ability to energise the neo-fascist elements would have been far less. The riling of the Republican social base is a dialectical result of liberals using power to overplay their hand.
Everyone around me - basically my entire town - voted for Trump. (I moved back to rural Michigan). The choice for Trump wasn't about the things you mention. Most of these people couldn't care less for conservatism vs liberalism, or any of the high falutin ideals you think made a difference on the street. Instead, they wanted someone who A) wasn't establishment and B) wouldn't take away their hunting rifles.

You sound a great deal like a media commentator, rather than an eye witness of what is actually going on with people. Everyone on the news drives me nuts trying to figure out why this happened. Which, in nearly every case, they're simply over thinking it.
If we consider the liberal thesis of political correctness as the proposition to which Trumpism is the antithesis, it is reasonable to explore how the virulence of Trump’s reaction is a function of how far the liberal ideas departed from a hypothetical central point of good governance. An extreme antithesis indicates that the provoking thesis was itself extreme.
If erring on the side of caution is a far departure from the hypothetical center, I think it's better than erring on the side of mouth diarrhea, which Trump is guilty of. Imagine that mouth diarrhea turning into action. Where human nature is concerned, that leads to conflict, instability, or even collapse.

Which mainstream liberal ideas are so politically correct that they are extremist?
Part of the problem is that people who are captured by an ideology, whether liberalism or neofascism,
Part of the liberal spectrum is near the center. The extreme you're throwing a dart at, opposite neofascism, is socialism, isn't it?
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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DWill wrote: I'm not even sure he's anti-establishment, geo. His cabinet picks so far have included several establishmentarians. . . .
Trump is anti-establishment in the sense that he has no political experience and that he doesn't have the usual ties with Washington insiders. So he is an outsider coming in, with no real clue how the system works. That can be both a blessing and a curse. I think the fact that he's picking some establishment figures for his cabinet only shows how unimaginative he really is. He is divorced from the usual political ideology, and so his cabinet picks are based primarily on the criteria of loyalty to Trump and not to any kind of political identity. Trump's outsider status was a big draw for many people, who are fed up with the usual political gridlock in Washington. But unfortunately they picked a a guy—Trump—who doesn't understand the big picture and who sees the world only in terms of his own ego.

I just don't see how Trump's next four years can be anything but a monumental failure. And I believe the folks who voted him into office will quickly lose interest when they realize that their situations will not improve. I think Trump's billionaire status—overlooked during the campaign—will become a liability when people realize that he's not the saviour after all. Then they will see Trump for the blowhard that he really is.

But I don't think Trump will be a disaster for our country. We will shake him off as the proverbial dog shakes off a flea. Congress will keep his stupidity in check. Most of his ideas are grandiose and unworkable to start with. He has already backed down on most of his inflammatory ideas. I read somewhere that he's already backing off on his strong anti-global warming stance.

So I see Trump's election is a symptom of a larger problem. And the very fact that he was elected is bound to shake things up. Both parties will have to change as Robert says, but it won't necessarily be for the better. On the other hand, we may also find that Trump who again has no real political identity may actually bring the two sides together if for nothing else to unite against him.
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i think geo and Interbane have the right idea. Trump's presidency can be nothing but failure because he made too many promises and lacks true vision. Now that he's in (probably), he's desperate to staff his cabinet with insiders who know how to play the game. People who want outsiders are amazingly unaware that an outsider is virtually helpless without insiders to give him a hand--after which he becomes an insider. Lack of political experience may be a virtue in the heartland but it is an extreme liability in Washington--like wading into a stream full of piranhas after walking thru a set of whirling razor blades. You may as well wear a sign that says, "Please eat me alive." You need insiders to protect you and then you are beholden to them and so are also beholden to whomever they are beholden to.

Trump's pick are SO far detached from the middleclass that it's ridiculous to think they will really do anything for them. The personal wealth of his cabinet is in the tens of billions. Prior to that, the richest cabinet was George W. Bush's at a distant $250 million. The trouble is, his cabinet is just as bereft of any real experience as he is. Ben Carson knows nothing about HUD and he's not going to last. He will turn out to be so incompetent that he'll likely be the first in the administration to be replaced.

The only reason a useless mop like Betsy DeVos got tapped to be secretary of education is because she's filthy rich by marrying into the Amway scam and because her brother is Erik Prince who founded the Blackwater secret mercenary police. Paul Ryan already made it clear that Congress would not appropriate money for a deportation force so Trump has to get one from somewhere else. So he hires DeVos and this gives him access to Blackwater (now called Academi) and so Trump will have his "deportation force" which is, of course, a secret police force operating above the law. That will end in embarrassing failure as it did for George Bush.

Then he hired these Flynn losers who are probably going to resign in disgrace at some point. The son is so dumb he actually believes pizzagate which was started by those misfit losers at 4chan. When you're so dumb you put the tiniest stock in 4chan, you have no business being anywhere near the White House. You should be considered an enemy of the state. But then Trump is fascinated with conspiracy theories as his buddy Steve Bannon and his other buddy Alex Jones. I see nothing but failure ahead.

Then Trump's refusal to get intelligence briefings (because he lacks the attention span necessary to sit through one) means gaffes like the China debacle will be routine and how long can that go on without repercussions?

He lacks anything and everything it takes to be a president. It's inconceivable that anything good will come out of him as Robert seems to think. It just doesn't work that way.
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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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DB Roy wrote:gaffes like the China debacle will be routine
Your assessment of Trump's courteous acceptance of a phone call from the President of Taiwan illustrates a common failure among leftists to appreciate the core values of liberty and democracy. Trump's pivot, unlike the weak Obama/Clinton attitude of loud talk and small stick, shows a principled strategic vision of Taiwan as a bridgehead to liberalise China. A path to open dialogue to ensure security without a craven toadying to the Chinese Communist Party is the best way to reduce the risk of conflict between China and the West. Far from being a mistake, Trump's approach shows a deft appreciation of America's strategic interests. Taiwan is an old friend of America, and deserves open friendship as a beacon of freedom in Asia.

The medium term goal of US relations to China should be to encourage China to shift its capital city from Beijing to Taipei, so China can achieve the democratic political progress that its economic advancement towards a market society demands. That is a path to help China sustain its stability.

Stability is the top virtue in statecraft. Without stability, all thought of prosperity and reform and peace goes out the window. Trump offers better prospects for stability based on strength, unlike the Democrats' attitude based on clueless weakness.

The evolution of China’s politics towards democracy and liberty need not at all be an unravelling that damages China’s national interests. China has already shown its ability to turn on a dime, ever since Chairman Deng’s ‘black cat white cat catch mice good cat’ endorsement of economic pragmatism. A similar political pragmatism that helps China take its rightful place among the family of peaceful democratic advanced nations, without any unravelling, is the deal that Trump can broker.
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Re: Trump Clinton Demographics

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Robert Tulip wrote:
DB Roy wrote:gaffes like the China debacle will be routine
Your assessment of Trump's courteous acceptance of a phone call from the President of Taiwan illustrates a common failure among leftists to appreciate the core values of liberty and democracy.
It has nothing to do with left or right. It is govt policy and has been 1979 and both democratic and republican presidents have observed it (and for good reason) until now and it is already turning disastrous. Bad enough he took the call but then he just has to go on Twitter and start haranguing the Chinese govt. These Twitter rants need to stop yesterday. He is jeopardizing the United States and its policies. These policies are in place for a purpose and it isn't to make left wingers feel better. These rants serve no purpose. But he has a deeply pathological need for this soapbox. He can't stay away even after saying he would in "60 Minutes." He also railed against the new Air Force One planes saying they are too expensive and just one costs $4 billion when, in fact, the funding under the current contract in limited to $170 million. He's off his rocker every time he goes on Twitter!
Trump's pivot, unlike the weak Obama/Clinton attitude of loud talk and small stick, shows a principled strategic vision of Taiwan as a bridgehead to liberalise China. A path to open dialogue to ensure security without a craven toadying to the Chinese Communist Party is the best way to reduce the risk of conflict between China and the West.
You act like you don't know this has already been tried--a million times. It doesn't work. You sit here badmouthing anything you perceive as coming from the left demonstrating how incapable you are of even admitting they might be right but you think Trump is going to unite China and Taiwan who hate one another WAY more than the left and right of this country will ever hate one another and I currently see no hope of either side could ever be united about anything so how are we supposed to united Taiwan and China?? But I suppose we're just so much more complex than these little Orientals across the ocean who can be so easily manipulated to do our bidding. It's been tried and it does not work. The best you can do is not to upset the apple cart and that is exactly what Trump is doing and he seems to be doing so very deliberately and he had better watch his ass or his own Congressmen will have to silence him.
Far from being a mistake, Trump's approach shows a deft appreciation of America's strategic interests. Taiwan is an old friend of America, and deserves open friendship as a beacon of freedom in Asia.
The truth is, Robert, that doesn't matter worth a shit. We recognize China for a very good reason: if we went to war with them, we could not possibly win. There is not a single scenario where we go to war and come out the victors. We couldn't even beat Iraq or Afghanistan. And once we lose, they call all the shots because to the victors go the spoils. It's that simple. We cannot afford to get on China's bad side. They can out-produce us and they will outlast us. Taiwan can't do shit but we sell them lots of military hardware every year so they're happy. It's a clear case of keeping your friends close and your enemies closer. We MUST keep China very close and that's why Trump's scuttling of TPP will be a huge disaster. It will cause every ally we have in Asia to have no choice but to toss their hat in with China--something they don't want to do but which Trump will force them to do. And make no mistake, they are very angry about that. That was years of hard work and diplomacy down the shitter.
The medium term goal of US relations to China should be to encourage China to shift its capital city from Beijing to Taipei, so China can achieve the democratic political progress that its economic advancement towards a market society demands. That is a path to help China sustain its stability.
It's not going to happen and to think it will shows me you are not thinking clearly. The Chinese are not hegemonous. If they were, they'd have long ago taken over all of Asia--the world, really. Their country is their country--they want no other. They won't try to take your country but you had better not try to take theirs either or any part of it or they will take it back (Tibet). They not going to leave Beijing for some foreign island of exile. Not going to happen. That's like asking the American govt to move from Washington DC to Havana. In fact, you'd have better luck with that than getting the Chinese govt to move to Taipei.
Stability is the top virtue in statecraft. Without stability, all thought of prosperity and reform and peace goes out the window. Trump offers better prospects for stability based on strength, unlike the Democrats' attitude based on clueless weakness.
Trump has no stability. He is as unstable as leaders come. It is frightening that someone so unstable is leading the most powerful nation in the world. Trump has made his position clear to all other nations--America first and fuck everyone else. That doesn't bring thoughts of prosperity and peaceful reform to anyone's mind. It is a recipe for war. And after this debacle with China, you can believe that is exactly what they are discussing--"Trump wants war, we must prepare."
The evolution of China’s politics towards democracy and liberty need not at all be an unravelling that damages China’s national interests.
It's very arrogant to think China will naturally evolve towards democracy and liberty when we are not a democracy and have elected a man who openly wants to curtail our liberties.
China has already shown its ability to turn on a dime, ever since Chairman Deng’s ‘black cat white cat catch mice good cat’ endorsement of economic pragmatism. A similar political pragmatism that helps China take its rightful place among the family of peaceful democratic advanced nations, without any unravelling, is the deal that Trump can broker.
Any cooperation we were getting from China came from our stated recognition of only one China. Expect no further cooperation. It is Trump who has to change not only for political purposes but because he is wrong and acting like a fucking ass and he owes China an apology. You just don't turn anti-China for no reason. China did nothing to deserve it. I'll wager you any odds that Trump apologizes. If he doesn't, we'll be on the losing end of that exchange not them. I haven't even brought up how much of our debt they own.
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DB Roy wrote: Nothing to do with left and right
I am lately noticing that some arguments from the progressive side of politics seem to exhibit an increasingly surreal detachment from reality. I don’t mean to be rude, but I think this detachment in the annals of political correctness is perceived by many Trump voters, and is why many were so pleased to see the back of Hillary Clinton. It seems obvious to me, to explore the latest foreign foray, that attitudes towards Taiwan are linked to people’s position on the political spectrum. Sympathy for Taiwan correlates with political conservatism. The fact that Taiwan is Trump’s first international dustup since the election, due to him adopting a position urged on him by conservatives, shows that political contact with Taiwan has something to do with left and right.
DB Roy wrote: He also railed against the new Air Force One planes saying they are too expensive and just one costs $4 billion when, in fact, the funding under the current contract in limited to $170 million.
Sorry DB, your comment here is rather distorted. Trump did not make any factual error as far as I could tell from http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... SKBN13V1S5
DB Roy wrote: You sit here badmouthing anything you perceive as coming from the left
No I do not. Your comment is an unfair generalisation, and even looks a bit like projection, given your general views about right wing opinions. I respect factual analysis that comes from all sources, and disrespect ideological opinions that lack coherent links to evidence.
DB Roy wrote: you think Trump is going to unite China and Taiwan
No, I did not say that, I just said that the USA should encourage China to shift its capital city to Taiwan. Any decision on China politics will be made by China, and not by anyone else, let alone Donald Trump.
DB Roy wrote: I currently see no hope of either side could ever be united about anything
That sort of dismal prognosis is a recipe for increased separation. Far better to imagine a future that better meets everyone’s needs, in a One China that respects modern values of democracy and liberty.
DB Roy wrote: Orientals across the ocean who can be so easily manipulated
Again, that is nothing but a distorted caricature. China’s politics has not advanced in line with its economy, and the USA can help China out by encouraging reform towards the values and principles that made America great. That is a win-win in the interests of both the US and China.
DB Roy wrote: The best you can do is not to upset the apple cart
like by kowtowing to the glorious Emperor of the Middle Kingdom? Image
DB Roy wrote: that is exactly what Trump is doing and he seems to be doing so very deliberately
’Upsetting the apple cart’ means restoring principles to politics after the Obama weak years.
DB Roy wrote: We recognize China for a very good reason: if we went to war with them, we could not possibly win.
That is a false dichotomy between recognition and war. It is Nervous Nellie language to say that we have to give in to a bully. It is better to stand up to a bully by asserting principles such as the right to state your opinions publicly to your friends. US friendship with Taiwan is not going to cause a war with China.
DB Roy wrote: There is not a single scenario where we go to war and come out the victors.
You might be forgetting the Second World War and the Korean War here.
DB Roy wrote: We cannot afford to get on China's bad side. They can out-produce us and they will outlast us.
Now you are really warming up. China’s GDP will not reach the level of the USA for a long time Image
Economic growth is best served by leaders who take a stand on principles, and that is what underpins Trump’s sympathy for Taiwan.
DB Roy wrote:Taiwan can't do shit
Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Miracle for a fact check on that one.
DB Roy wrote:
The Chinese are not hegemonous. If they were, they'd have long ago taken over all of Asia--the world, really.
The nature of politics is that nations test their limits and avoid risks. The USA gave China’s expansionist tendencies a bloody nose in the wars of communist expansion in Korea and Vietnam. The US Navy continues to safeguard the stability of Asia’s trade routes.
DB Roy wrote: They not going to leave Beijing for some foreign island of exile. Not going to happen. That's like asking the American govt to move from Washington DC to Havana. In fact, you'd have better luck with that than getting the Chinese govt to move to Taipei.
One difference is that Cuba is an abusive basket case while Taiwan is a thriving member of the OECD.
DB Roy wrote: after this debacle with China, you can believe that is exactly what they are discussing--"Trump wants war, we must prepare."
That is rank alarmism serving only to whip up ideological fervor. Trump does not want war. But nor does he want to be pushed around to the detriment of America’s interests. Peace is best protected when strong nations lead by example and encourage weaker and more backward nations to improve their performance, rather than pretending that corrupt and abusive actions are acceptable. Trump is no saint, but he is far more likely to be on the right side of the big questions than Clinton would have been.

The past policy of failure to stand up for Taiwan, and all the kowtow worrywart carryon, sends all the wrong signals about American values.
DB Roy wrote: It's very arrogant to think China will naturally evolve towards democracy and liberty when we are not a democracy and have elected a man who openly wants to curtail our liberties.
The USA has a long and proud record of peaceful democratic transition of government, despite abuses at the margin such as preventing blacks from voting and the Bush/Gore Florida episode. I had a look for analysis of this plan to curtail liberties, and https://www.aclu.org/feature/donald-tru ... nal-crisis shows it is mostly about restricting the opportunities for foreigners to take advantage of America’s generosity. For example, Trump wants to make American residency based on rule of law.
DB Roy wrote: Any cooperation we were getting from China came from our stated recognition of only one China. Expect no further cooperation.
Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests. Cooperation with China is based on interests, primarily in trade. China will only bluster in response to the USA ending its hypocrisy on Taiwan.
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