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The real Noah's ark!

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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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How many pairs of animals were in it?
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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I'm thinking about attending an event hosted by Tri-State Freethinkers, the folks who are attempting to put up the "Genocide and Incest" billboard shown above. It's the same day as, and in response to, the Ark Encounter launch. I prolly wouldn't have considered this before seeing how many of these events Chris goes to...

https://www.facebook.com/events/149590555453015/
Join us for a Rally for Science and Reason! Free event! Hear from several national speakers on the importance of science & reason over religion & dogma, and what we can do about it. If you care about teaching evolution not intelligent design in public schools, reproductive freedom not restriction, equal rights not discrimination, you need to be here and show your support!

Speakers

Jim G. Helton
President, Tri-State Freethinkers
How Creationism and religion impacts all of our social problems

David Silverman
President, American Atheists
Placing religion on a pedestal: How we atheists help religion because religion wants us to

Dan Barker
Co-President, Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF)
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Callie Wright
Gaytheist Manifesto
LGBT rights are human rights and religion is a probelm


Aron Ra
Noah's Ark: the silliest story in the compilation

David Smalley
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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ant wrote:Yes - it could float. Most certainly. In theory.
But nobody is willing to actually replicate completely (with animals and all) to test the hypothesis completely for verification.
You'd have to be a bit crazy to lose sleep over it though.
It could float in theory. Animals weigh pound for pound just about the same as water. In theory, if you mashed up all the animals together into hamburger and squeezed them onto a ship with the dimensions given in the bible, it would float. Things change when you consider the amount of food and water these animals require. That's not to mention breathing room, like around the nostrils and mouth. Or wiggle room, around the body. Or even some space to defecate and urinate. Or how about the areas where animals need to walk into and out of the cage?
It's a myth.
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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The real Noah's ark is the constellation of Argo. Argo is visible from the Southern Hemisphere and as far north as Israel, but not from Europe or the USA. That is why after the thousand years of Christendom the real shape of Argo was totally forgotten and it was remade in reverse after the Europeans sailed south of the equator, wrongly placing the poop deck where the ancients probably saw the prow.

Argo's main star Canopus, the second brightest star after Sirius, is called Agastya in India, a name that has a direct etymological link through Argo to Ark. There is a fascinating myth in India of the travel of Agastya north through India which matches the slow movement of Canopus away from the South Pole due to earth's spin wobble, which over the course of history meant that Canopus gradually became visible at more northerly latitudes.

The story of Jason and the Argonauts builds on this stellar imagery of Argo in various ways, including an apparent explanation of why Canopus is visible from Egypt but not from Greece, with the Argo losing its prow ornament (the star Canopus) when it sails through the Bosphorus.

The major similarities between the Genesis Noah story and the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh illustrate that the Noah story would have lost a Stairway to Heaven plagiarism case.

There is also a major possible parallel between the ark and the manger of Jesus Christ. The two mythical heroes of the covenants of the rainbow and the virgin birth arise from the same stellar observations. The manger of Christ appears to occupy the same stars as the deck of the Argo, and also the coffin of Osiris. However, I caution that this is just my personal hypothesis based solely on observation of the stars, as it provides a plausible explanation of the Gospel story of the wise men from the east (Orion's Belt) and the star, which rises above Argo at Christmas time from more southerly latitudes.

The real Noah's ark in the stars of Argo is an important case study in the evolution of mythology and the pathological amnesia surrounding ancient stellar lore. Cosmic imagery was made anathema by Christendom, and has been suppressed, ignored, forgotten and denied for nearly two thousand years. Reconstructing this real possible story in a purely scientific way is important to illustrate the ethical evil of religious fundamentalism.
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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I went to the anti-ark science rally yesterday, described a few posts above. Many in the audience had protested at the opening of the Ark Encounter that morning - mainly objecting to tax $ used to support the construction and the absurd ideas promoted by the exhibit. The opening and the protest got a lot of local and even international media attention. Tri-State Freethinkers felt they changed the story... Here are a few tid-bits from the rally that night.

David Smalley of Dogma Debate was master of ceremonies.

Aaron Ra gave a talk on how Noah's Ark is the most ridiculous story in the bible. Another speaker stated Aaron should play God in a move as he always looked ready to smite someone. :lol: (I wanted to get my picture taken with him, but things ran too late on a work night.)

The Ark Encounter exhibit includes caged dinsosaurs and even unicorns! Yes! Are they pink? Haven't found a photo yet. Dammit - although they call it a unicorn, it's actually just a single horn rhinoceros. :?

The founder of the school group Young Skeptics gave a presentation. It's partly in response to "Good News Clubs" held in public schools.

BookTalk has discussed Dan Barker's book Godless, but did you know Dan is an excellent musician? :appl:

Bill Nye was invited, but couldn't attend yesterday. However he got a personal tour of the Ark Encounter with Ken Ham today. :shock: Bill is working on a new film and a light sail similar to what Sagan and Druyan worked on.

David Silverman gave a blistering speech that went a bit too far for me - like some of Sam Harris' comments - but entertaining...

Breaking news: Ken Ham is planning yet another major exhibit right in between the Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter. It's called the Creation Science Hall of Fame and is sure to extract even more tax $ from Kentuckians. Check out the modest building concept:

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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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Thanks LanDroid, that is great that you could get there, it is fascinating to see insanity on such a grand scale.

I would not use 'ridiculous' as a word for Noah's Ark. That is a condescending term to use when atheism has not itself established a valid rival mythology with equal capacity to structure social values. The Flood has clear basis in the flooding of the Persian Gulf due to climate change between about 20,000 and 10,000 BC, and other similar events such as the flooding of the Black Sea. How the meme of the real flood/s morphed via the Gilgamesh Story and the Indian Agastya myths into the Biblical account is a fascinating problem in cultural evolution, including regarding the moral story of God's hatred of evil.

As well, Young Earth Creationism has an important linkage to the idea of Jesus Christ as Saviour, since as Paul says, Jesus came to repair Adam's sin, meaning no Adam no Jesus.

Disproving the literal myth is only the entry point to a serious analysis of the meaning of these core stories. Jesus is the keystone for American settler mythology, so the whole community value framework supplied by YEC is demolished without Adam and the fall from grace.

The idea from the Negro Spiritual O Mary Don't You Weep - "won't be water but fire next time' - helps to place the flood myth against a real scientific prophetic story about climate change and how human ignorance and sin can provoke the wrath of Gaia. As the Hopis say in Koyaanisqatsi, we could boil the sea.
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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Interesting as always, Mr. Tulip. However I see no reason why atheism must establish "a valid rival mythology with equal capacity to structure social values." First, the social values extolled in the Noah myth - divine genocide and human incest - are absolutely horrendous. Second, obviously the ark proponents are not treating it as a myth; they built that replica to convince folks of a literal truth. Third, secularism has already established legal documents with vastly superior ethics, the U.S. Constitution as one example. Although the original document was deeply flawed, including the compromise with slavery and so on, it has stood the test of time and is much more effective than a myth. In contrast, imagine what the U.S.A. or Australia would be like if the Bible was the founding document. Fourth, perhaps atheism actually has produced a "myth" to structure global social values in Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan. That hasn't caught on broadly - perhaps it needs to be distilled into a standard repeatable story. The evolutionary tree of life might be another candidate to be distilled into a "myth" that inspires secular values. Also it's too soon - I expect myths take quite a long time to capture imaginations and take root in the psyche.
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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LanDroid wrote:Interesting as always, Mr. Tulip.
Thank you LanDroid, I see these issues as of high importance and urgency, so am happy to chat about how religion can be transformed under the eye of reason.

Here we are now building a new ark like Noah, while the moronic masses of the world ignore the looming peril of extinction from climate change. The required task is all about psychoanalyzing what people really mean in their subconscious intent, rather than taking their inane utterance and actions as the literal summation.
LanDroid wrote: However I see no reason why atheism must establish "a valid rival mythology with equal capacity to structure social values."
Well in that case you cede the ground of the formation of popular meaning and values to Mr Ham and his mad friends. Popular values are inherently mythological, not in the sense of being untrue, but in the sense of being grounded in a simple popular story whose real meaning is not simply seen.
LanDroid wrote: First, the social values extolled in the Noah myth - divine genocide and human incest - are absolutely horrendous.
Those values are not extolled. The imaginative point of the Noah story is that after the fall from grace, people got so bad that the genome went through a choke point, like after Toba, surviving only because of the foresight and planning of Noah.

Genesis does not say the flood was a good thing, but rather makes it a parable for the consequences of human evil. The lesson of the parable for today is that we need similar vision and planning to prevent the catastrophic peril of climate change that is now barreling towards us.
LanDroid wrote: Second, obviously the ark proponents are not treating it as a myth; they built that replica to convince folks of a literal truth.
Yes, and fundamentalists are just like the moronic evil masses whom Noah tried to convert without success and who were swept away by the flood. Ironic, isn’t it?
LanDroid wrote: Third, secularism has already established legal documents with vastly superior ethics, the U.S. Constitution as one example. Although the original document was deeply flawed, including the compromise with slavery and so on, it has stood the test of time and is much more effective than a myth.
A basic problem in the debate about popular Christianity is that fundamentalists don’t seem to recognize the basic message of Jesus, replacing ‘eye for an eye’ with ‘love thy neighbor’. The revenge ethic of Moses is not the proper standard to judge Christianity by.

The US Constitution as it is interpreted is not 'vastly superior' to the ethics of the Gospel. America is powerless to address some major ethical problems such as gun culture, jails and the excessive individualism causing gross inequality and collapse of community.

By contrast, Jesus says that one of the six simple ways to avoid going to hell is to visit prisoners. He suggests an ethic of restorative justice, forgiving people who are sorry for their mistakes. That would all be transformative if taken seriously, and addresses much deeper moral agendas than the consensus legal framework of the Constitution.
LanDroid wrote: In contrast, imagine what the U.S.A. or Australia would be like if the Bible was the founding document.
It would be great! What about Revelation 11:18, my favourite line in the whole Bible, that the wrath of God is against those who destroy the earth?

The shame is that so few people actually read the Bible, so they imagine that fundamentalist values are actually Biblical. They are not. The Bible is primarily about the need for love as the basis of social values.
LanDroid wrote: Fourth, perhaps atheism actually has produced a "myth" to structure global social values in Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan.
Nice point, except that Sagan’s value system suggests that humans are inconsequential in the cosmic scheme of things, whereas from our perspective we are central.

We need a reverse Copernican revolution, putting humans back at the centre of our value systems. That was what Kant tried to achieve, by saying objects must conform to our intellect.
LanDroid wrote: That hasn't caught on broadly - perhaps it needs to be distilled into a standard repeatable story.
The problem with the pale blue dot as a structure of meaning is that it defiantly argues that life is meaningless, paraphrased by Weinberg with his famous atheist credo “The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.” Saying that your meaning is that there is no meaning is not a meaning.
LanDroid wrote: The evolutionary tree of life might be another candidate to be distilled into a "myth" that inspires secular values.
There is excellent scope for evolution to provide a framework of meaning and purpose, through ideas such as natural selection, cumulative adaptation and causality. I think there is merit in seeing human intelligence as a real apex of evolution.
LanDroid wrote: Also it's too soon - I expect myths take quite a long time to capture imaginations and take root in the psyche.
The problem with scientific myths is that they are anti-myths, as seen clearly in Sagan and Weinberg. You cannot tell the masses that there is nothing special or exceptional about human existence in this universe.

My favourite philosopher Martin Heidegger provided an excellent deconstruction of the scientific myth produced by Rene Descartes, who believed that “I think therefore I am” provides a logical foundation to prove the existence of the universe. Heidegger says we should instead start by assuming that being in the world with others is the context for thought, instead of imagining that pure scientific logic can provide an adequate systematic framework.

The problem with the myth of the cogito is again subconscious, that its social acceptance depends on politics and economics, rather than logic alone. Descartes’ cogito supports the modern value of the isolated rational individual, and was eventually enthroned by the tyrannical bigot Robespierre.

Now that may seem to have drifted some distance from Noah, but the point is that the Noah story has a deep archetypal symbolic meaning, for example in what it says about our non-response to climate change. The idea that prevailing popular modern rationality could be our salvation is something we should deconstruct, just as Noah deconstructed the prevailing values of his day.
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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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The Ark Myth does indeed extoll the virtues of genocide and incest. A Diety killed every living thing on earth save what was housed in the ark, damn near a total life extinction event. Repopulating the earth required lots of incest. Since that Diety is viewed as just and compassionate, those events must also be seen as such. Any alternative view of that Diety and those events is too horrible to contemplate, so it never enters the crania of believers.

What meaning did the lives those who were exterminated have? None. There was "nothing special or exceptional" about them except perhaps as a disposable warning to others. :x Same with the coming extinction event when Jesus returns: the oceans will be poisoned and billions of people killed. You decry the lack of meaning provided by science, but what meaning does religion provide for believers? "Yay! We're not gonna be slaughtered then eternally tortured"??? And again what meaning does religion provide to those who didn't join the correct one?
A basic problem in the debate about popular Christianity is that fundamentalists don’t seem to recognize the basic message of Jesus, replacing ‘eye for an eye’ with ‘love thy neighbor’. The revenge ethic of Moses is not the proper standard to judge Christianity by.
No, I think you know better - here's how that actually works.

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Re: The real Noah's ark!

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I understand what you're saying about the pale blue dot highlighting a total lack of meaning. However that "myth" should provide significant meaning with a better interpretation. It emphasizes how all of the world's wars, discoveries, and complications occur on one insignificant planet. So let's keep that perspective - we're the only intelligent life known in this vast universe - let's get our crap together, unify, and build something spectacular on this miniscule spec of dust.

The tree of life could also become an inspiring "myth." In contrast to Judeo-Christian values, all life is precious. If any one of your ancestors human or animal going back billions of years in an unbroken chain had been killed before giving birth, you would not exist. Consider the inter-dependencies of all life and that of innumerable future generations.
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