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Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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DWill

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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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Graeme Wood's article in The Atlantic last spring caused some controversy because he answered the question: Is ISIL in accordance with Islam? in the affirmative. Many others have claimed that the ISIL extremists aren't really Muslims at all, that is, not true to the faith. Wood demonstrated that there is plenty of scriptural support for the ISIL interpretation. It's a matter of what Muslims choose to emphasize in their religion. Christians can also derive an extremist faith from their scriptures, if they so choose. Today, most don't.
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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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The realities in Syria,Iraq and other involved nations is extremely complicated. There is often an ambivalence in their actions dictated by their individual goals.
Thus Saudi Arabia is opposed to Assad's regime and funding has been provided by individuals at least for insurgent groups against Assad,yet they fear Isil's intent in relation to Saudi Arabia itself.

Turkey can't make it's mind up just who it is supporting or fighting and is often at cross purposes with supposed allies.
The U.S. supports the Kurds against Isil yet Turkey is opposed to the Kurdish militias.

And Russia and Assad are fighting all opponents of Assad's regime yet the U.S. is opposed to Assad's regime and Isil but many of the same militant jihadist groups are fighting the Syrian regime's army and Russia.
Isil succeeded in turning the war in Iraq into a sectarian civil war with the stimulus of the Iraqi government's sectarian actions and policies.
Iran is supporting both the Iraqi government and Assad's government while the U.S.supports the Iraqi government's opposition to Isil while seeking regime change in Syria.

It seems for some who are swayed by Isil's sophisticated if sick propaganda they are often disillusioned by the bloody reality of their practices and life in the caliphate.
They don't advertise all their cruel actions but select those most in line with their aims and image as they want it portrayed.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 43366.html

Dealing with the reality of what is happening is not easy whatever is occurring within Islam in debating what is or is not genuine Islam.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 43451.html
Whether a military success for the forces fighting Isil in Syria would solve the problem of radical Islam or make it worse is debatable,but what really can be done to address the problem?
Last edited by Flann 5 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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DWill wrote:Christians can also derive an extremist faith from their scriptures, if they so choose. Today, most don't.
There are basic ethical differences between Christianity and Islam in terms of use of scripture. The Christian extreme which derives from the Gospels would have people loving their enemies, going the extra mile, turning the other cheek, welcoming strangers, performing works of mercy, seeing the wrath of God as against those who destroy the earth, and treating the least of the world as though they are Jesus Christ.

This ethical framework of gracious love which derives directly from the Gospels can be seen as a good scientific evolutionary aspiration, as goals which human society might be able to support after a thousand years of sustained effort.

It is entirely wrong to imagine that traditional Christian fundamentalism is actually Biblical. In reality, fundamentalism is a perversion of scripture, based on manipulating it to serve the interests of imperial expansion, and failing to see that symbolic myths should not be read literally. Fundamentalism also fails to see the basic core Christian doctrine that Jesus Christ brought a new covenant of love. The difference with Islam is that you don't have to pervert the Koran to find its endorsement of military subjugation as a core doctrine.
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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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Robert Tulip wrote:It is entirely wrong to imagine that traditional Christian fundamentalism is actually Biblical. In reality, fundamentalism is a perversion of scripture, based on manipulating it to serve the interests of imperial expansion, and failing to see that symbolic myths should not be read literally.
Hi Robert. Just about any excuse can and has been used for imperial expansion. It includes many religions as well as secular governments.
As you know the gospels are presented as biographical history not myth and the mythicist view of an invented person Jesus representing the sun as God is not taken seriously by most scholars.

War is horrific and all sides are guilty of war crimes in Syria with death and suffering inflicted on civilians including children.

And yet it seems that some think that Isil will simply stop and put down their weapons if they are not opposed militarily.

If it was just a matter of benevolence being shown would that persuade them to desist? 'Til now they have been awash with oil money and hardly in need of such assistance at all.

Granted many involved in the conflict against Isil do not have good motives themselves. It may be that a U.N. based approach involving less directly interested nations and governments would be better as there is a clear Sunni/Shia divide among many of the conflicting powers involved.

Their rulers need to come to their senses as what is emerging is broadly an ethnic and religious war down Shia/Sunni lines across the middle east.
It's an oversimplification and such as France,Britain and the U.S. do not fit neatly into the category of 'Christian crusader' nations though it's seems that some like to see everything "poisonous" emanating from religion.
You obviously don't Robert but your version of Christianity doesn't even amount to minor cult status within strands of Christianity worldwide.
I would add that from a biblical perspective God sometimes uses unjust nations as instruments of judgement on other nations.
You would hardly consider Stalin's regime righteous yet Russia played a significant part in the defeat of Nazism.

Incidentally one Swiss region has now introduced a fine of six thousand euros on anyone wearing a burqa though balaclavas and motorbike helmets are o.k. apparently.
Last edited by Flann 5 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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Aurora Beauty wrote:Allow me to clarify some facts about Muslims nowadays :

1) Muslims are hugely influenced by modern ways of living so this created two main categories of muslims : the extremists and the ones who are not fully interested in religion .

2) Muslims misunderstood their own religion so as a consequence some of them are becoming vulnerabe to invitations to JIHAD which is entirely a different thing

3) The media for some reason are trying to make muslims seem like dangerous people who are threathening humanity and are living just to kill

It's obvious that no religion would invite people to destroy others , muslims are too against what happened in Paris and other countries before ; but why would such thing as hijab be a reason to judge the woman wearing it ? hijab has a high purpose that has nothing to do with such barbaric acts , its meant to make a woman special and protected who is meant for only one man ; and she is taught to respect other people from other religions , so i don't see why should hijab be banned !
" but why would such thing as hijab be a reason to judge the woman wearing it ? "

Exactly the point.

It does not mean what you wrote "it meant to make a woman special and protected who is meant for only one man ; and she is taught to respect other people from other religions".

Such apparel does not mean that a woman is special, is more protected or meant for only one man. To wear such apparel in a free world is telling free women that they are not as special and protected and is a sign of one-upmanship that male Muslim want to rub into the noses of non-Muslims.

Equality under the law is the Western way and for Muslim women to suggest that Western free women are somehow less loved, protected and respected because they do not submit to their men, --- in wearing what Muslim men insist upon, is an insult to both Western men and women as well as Eastern women/chattel.

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DL
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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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Harry Marks wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote: If you act free, even if forced to by law, eventually you start to believe you are free and you become free.
That's a very hopeful reading of the Zimbardo experiment. Good luck finding examples beyond a few individuals under the influence of a charismatic "Captain."
The evidence is clear. Accept it or not.

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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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CoolSummer wrote:Personally I am glad my religious beliefs don't require me to wear anything close to this. But I definitely would never judge someone who was wearing these items. I have had a friend who wore these items, and another who had westernized the look while staying covered as required in that religion. I find that most people are reasonable about such things, if they have been educated and raised to treat others respectfully. As for the media they usually sensationalize things, especially when there have been tragic events such as in Paris. I guess a better question would be would you even wish to live in a place that would put such a law in place.
The fact that almost all immigration is from East to West answers your question fully.

And Muslims want to bring that vile ideology to all of the West.

If Western women do not guard against such an ideology, they chance becoming chattel (again), the way right wing Christianity would like to bring back into vogue.

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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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Flann 5 wrote: The essentially 'theocratic 'nature of Islam is certainly a problem. There may be disagreements among clerics and different strands of Islam on interpretations of the Quran and it's laws but it's generally thought desirable among them that it should be implemented in some form.
I think this is the core issue. All religions, or essentially all, have a theocratic urge and a subculture advocating theocracy. But Islam has historical and textual components which push it harder in that direction.

So a reasonable question is why they have been unable to do what Judaism and Christianity have done, which is to make peace with secularism.

One reason may be an inferiority complex. Islam feels threatened by Western culture, with its technological advantages, and so tends to interpret points made about freedom and tolerance in terms of concession or resistance to the West. The most effective way to challenge this is to quit pretending to be morally superior, badgering Islamic countries about not doing things our way, while ignoring the things we get wrong. On the other hand, many of the antiquated aspects of Islam which they resist changing, such as the emancipation of women, are holding them back educationally and so technologically.

Another reason may be the absolutist stand of much of secularism, which tends to have trouble accepting other world views, and even any results of other worldviews which may have secular justifications if examined closely.

Part of the problem with this may be that secularism, like other ideologies shaped in a conflictual political environment, tends to violate the first rule of win-win negotiation which is to focus on priorities rather than positions. That is, secularists (like a lot of religious groups) tend to decide first what they think is right in a given situation, and then to adapt their communication to defend this position, rather than to sort out priorities and seek the mutually best outcome.

Try that out on a simple example. By far the majority of Muslims, as pointed out above, believe that apostates should be killed. Now, to a secularized Westerner, this is so unacceptable that we can hardly begin to discuss it. But it is clearly stated in the Koran, and so most Muslims have no handhold for bringing their normal views of tolerance to bear.

Focusing on priorities allows us to consider alternative approaches. For example, one might learn to construct versions of Islam which atheist and secularist Muslims could accept, and then shoehorn the "apostates" in through that alternative definition. Before the Iranian revolution took Islamism off the rails, there was a lot of movement toward expansive approaches to interpretation of the Koran, and modernist Jewish and Christian approaches suggest that such broad definitions for Islam are possible.

But secularists tend to be absolutists, and begin with their position, which is that no one should be under any compulsion in religious thought, not even a compulsion to give lip service or to affirm socially useful aspects. That might be a fine ending point, but if we begin with insisting that this be the definition of "right" then there may never be progress. The best becomes the enemy of the good.
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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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H M

I think what Islam fears is not the West but Western secular morals and secular law. If Islam's laws were compared to ours, ours would win hands down just with logic and reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-oR1WIMtLE

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Re: Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote: I think what Islam fears is not the West but Western secular morals and secular law.
Certainly that is the party line. I have heard several educated Muslims tell me that divorce and pornography are the natural result of Western morals and "tolerance". They may have a point.

"Hot tub culture" sounds alluring on the face of it, but if I ask myself whether I would want a daughter to identify with it, or for that matter a son, I have to admit the answer is no.

On the other hand, as we know, restricting divorce ends up meaning subjugating women, in most cases, and if you make people specify their choice about access to porn, as Britain did, the vast majority opt in.

So there are several important issues raised about compulsion and liberty, but I think it is sheer arrogance to argue that the only acceptable system is the current Western one.
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