I am not judging the book from the first three chapters. I'll keep reading, actually I have read the next assignment (if one can call it that - LOL). I do have some input re prejudice, but am waiting until further discussion into the book. I think that it takes at least maybe 75 pages to get into the story. My younger daughter refused to read my book "Desire and Red Wine..." because after reading the first chapter she found it too boring . You got to give it a chance !!! Not leaving, just busy...doing a commission painting (I'm also an artist)...have grand kids, family, etc. I'm not one of those book worms that reads 5 books per month. Life gets in the way !

Penelope wrote:Crystalline said she was not liking the book and LisaRose loves it, so I want to say to Crystal , please stay with us, we need your input. You are quite forthright and that is good. Furthermore, I would tell you that I didn't like Virginia Wolff's 'To the Lighthouse' but I liked it in retrospect because it lead to a good discussion where we all came out a bit more 'aware' than before.

I find it almost impossible to distinguish the voice and views of the narrator from Jean Louise so far. Crystalline may be right that Jean Louise needs to be more mature in her reactions to what she finds wrong with Maycomb, and it's culture etc.
Maybe as it goes on that will become clearer.

Lawrence wrote:MS. PENNY, I think you are doing a splendid job and if Chris isn't complaining, he's happy.

I hope you're not saying this Lawrence because Penelope excused you on the grounds of not actually having read the book yet.
Your recollections of your time as prosecuting attorney were interesting,with the background of that time.
No worries about getting everything perfectly organised in categories,Penelope. It's loose but that's o.k and not a real problem.
Hopefully you won't be required to appear with a switch like Miss Rachel,to break up unruly and turbulent behaviour here.
Very funny,that incident.
I don't think I've got it all worked out and often find other perspectives very helpful and it make reading more enjoyable.

Flann wrote:

I find it almost impossible to distinguish the voice and views of the narrator from Jean Louise so far.

There are some books, where you feel the author sitting on your shoulder.....(Dickens is a bit like that, genius though he was.) I don't know that it is such a bad trait. Virginia Wolff said the author should also be androgynous (you should have seen how I spelt that before I googled it!!). She was a bit of a plonker imo.

I don't mind at all listening to the opinions and ideas of an intelligent gifted author. It is far preferable to listening to the opinions of pop stars and models pontificating. This happens all the time these days. Film stars hold forth on world problems as if the fact that they are famous makes them the fount of all knowledge.

It infuriates me I'm afraid. Experts in the bleeding obvious.......

Penelope wrote: There are some books, where you feel the author sitting on your shoulder.....(Dickens is a bit like that, genius though he was.) I don't know that it is such a bad trait. Virginia Wolff said the author should also be androgynous (you should have seen how I spelt that before I googled it!!).

The narrator seems to me to share Jean Louise perspective so far. So for instance, the narrator will give a history of Maycomb as being absurd,with Colonel Maycomb,getting everything backwards in the Indian wars and eventually being honoured and the town named after him.
We see that Jean Louise knows the same facts as everyone else but sees their grounds for it's importance are absurd,and the narrator is telling us that they are.
I think the opening of chapter four is a good example. The narrator gives a farcical history of how Maycomb came to be located where it was. Interestingly, Jean Louise thinks this wasn't great because it's so far from the nearest transport means which is ferry.So we have distinct voices here but the narrator's history isn't doing the town any favours.
It may be that as it progresses things become clearer and more distinct.

Well I've made it just exactly this far, and have happily read through the discussion for part 1. It feels old now, so I suppose I should just keep reading. I can't see the fun in that so I'm going to participate on an old thread anyway.

I don't find Jean Louise to be remarkably immature, in fact I rather like her indignance. She was never cut out for the refined life and this is quite how I'd imagined she'd turn out, so much so it borders on dull predictability. She is not without sense, she's just rough around the edges. I don't understand how so many people seem to think that she ought to be different, these individuals sound just like Aunty Alex. In all seriousness though, I do like her. It's the same Scout we've always known, short of the lack of mechanical inclination. I would've liked her better had she been more of a "move over boy, I'm driving" type. Though, looking back, I can see this part of her too (her fears, her willingness to follow, etc).

I'm incredibly disheartened that Jem kicked off. I had hoped that Scout and Jem would have held their bond over the years, even through the many miles that separated them. Perhaps this has more to do with my own brother having recently shipped of to Cali for bootcamp but it matters not, I'm still bummed.

WW wrote:

Well I've made it just exactly this far, and have happily read through the discussion for part 1. It feels old now, so I suppose I should just keep reading. I can't see the fun in that so I'm going to participate on an old thread anyway.

I am glad that you are commenting on earlier threads. It is no use jumping in 'where we're at' because then we can't see how the build up of characters has worked, or not worked (Lawrence!) for each of us.

Are you nearer to the age that Jean would have been? Some of us on here are really, really old and so perhaps that's why we feel she is immature. I felt she was immature.....in her rejecting of Jem. She says at one point that she wouldn't marry him in case she met the love of her life a few years later and then regrets. But that sort of passionate love doesn't last....if it happens in the first place, it is wondrous......but it always seems to cool down, if you're lucky, into a pleasant friendship, but if you're not, then it can be a most miserable partnership. Lust can drive you to marry some one whom you don't really like. I felt that Jem offered her a great basis for a lifelong partnership in that they genuinely liked one another.......There is so much emphasis placed upon 'Love' but actually I think 'Liking' is much more important......Liking one's spouse but also liking one's children and grandchildren....

Thanks Penelope, I'm glad there's still discussion to be had here!

I'm 33, married at 19 into an abusive excuse for a marriage neither based on love nor lust, but rather fear and mental exhaustion. The first years of separation from my first husband were incredibly intense, learning to stand on my own with three small children underfoot, but that is the time in which I can best relate to Jean. Questioning everything in a world where everyone seems to expect more of you than you feel capable of. I have recently (two weeks ago) re-married, and if not for those selfish and exploratory years (eight total, the last four of which with my current husband waiting for me) I can't say I would be satisfied to call myself anyone's wife.

Jean seems to understand that Hank (Jem's her brother) would make a fantastic partner, and she knows that an affair is imminent in the event of marrying before she is ready. Her willingness to die a spinstress than to marry before she is ready is admirable, especially given what is expected of her by a society still very much Aunty Alex in nature. (Another point, Alexandria may be the last of her kind, but she is still something of a representation of societal expectations as noted by observations made by the narrator, Alex, Hank, and even Jean.)

She should not marry him until she has suffered through the sort of soul-crushing heartbreak that would give her cause to appreciate the sweetness that is her dearest friend. Some folks, those like Jean, who carry galaxies in their restless hearts, simply must fully experience these things before they can be accepted as truth. Being self-aware enough to recognize this is the furthest thing from immature that I can see, furthermore there is a genuine consideration of what is fair to Hank should she marry him and find herself in some seedy motel room with another man; hearts pounding, skin glistening. And she's right.

Others may perceive her reactions to everyday events as immature, as well. She isn't terribly adept at handling/processing her emotions. She reacts to Alexandria's remarks about Hank as a child might, by holding him closer and considering marriage more seriously. Though this reaction is relatively true to human nature insofar as I have studied the stuff. Her friend was attacked, the protectress in her rose to the surface.

There is also her preference for comfortable clothing which may be part of why she's given this "unrefined" label. This may also be attributed the generational gap. I know people from my generation who don't step out of the house without being fully put together but I know far more from my grandmother's generation who do this. Many people from my generation don't give a second thought to wearing pajamas to the grocery, while folks from as early as my mother's generation still scoffs at such individuals. This aspect of Jean may as well be attributed to her being ahead of her time in terms of female fashion. When we think of TKAM we think of race issues, but I always admired the overall-sporting Scout just as much as I admired her justice-driven father.

My great-grandmother would spend HOURS every Saturday morning putting together her outfits, complete with matching scarves and jewelery, sitting under her hair dryer, applying layers upon layers of make-up. I never thought much about it until I was filing her finger nails into the perfect point she prefered as she laid in her deathbed with nails she would've been mortified to have a stranger see. I had always taken it as mere vanity, but it wasn't. It was a desire to bring her best into the world. This bit of refinery may be part of what others speak of when regarding Jean as unrefined and immature. I'd rather spend 15 minutes enriching my mind, talking to my children, reading, knitting, practicing yoga, hiking, or laughing at some stupid youtube video, than ensuring my every last hair is in it's place. I think Jean's the same. She'd rather romp around comfortably in slacks than participate in "a coffee" in her best stockings. She'd rather experience life, fully alive, than pretend to be some stuffy lawyers daughter for everyone to dote upon.

Just because she's not the picturesque daughter of a Finch... She's committed to being true to herself while keeping the feelings of others in mind (ie. fairness to Hank, Atticus' happiness). In my opinion, you can't be much more refined than that.

Of course I'm only to chapter 5 so all opinions are subject to change.

Well WW - I was also married at 19 years of age.....In fact, I was 18 and 19 on my honeymoon a week later in 1964.

That all turned out OK. and of course, it was our 50th Golden Wedding Anniversary last year.

I am sorry it has taken so long to reply to your post. My old laptop died - Caput.....and my other half has
bought me a new - tablet thingy come laptop. Not quite used to it yet.

Anyway, that is why I have been neglectful of this thread.

Also, my bookshop is closing down...I can't imagine life without my wonderful characters whom I encounter at the bookstore...but everything must change....and a daresay I'll get used to it...

Anyway....I could do with a few more challenging posts folks!!

WW wrote:-

My great-grandmother would spend HOURS every Saturday morning putting together her outfits, complete with matching scarves and jewelery, sitting under her hair dryer, applying layers upon layers of make-up. I never thought much about it until I was filing her finger nails into the perfect point she prefered as she laid in her deathbed with nails she would've been mortified to have a stranger see. I had always taken it as mere vanity, but it wasn't. It was a desire to bring her best into the world. This bit of refinery may be part of what others speak of when regarding Jean as unrefined and immature. I'd rather spend 15 minutes enriching my mind, talking to my children, reading, knitting, practicing yoga, hiking, or laughing at some stupid youtube video, than ensuring my every last hair is in it's place.

This is interesting WW, because I am very vain. I, like your grandmother, love fashion and scarves. Not so much jewellery....but reckon we largely are what we appear. I like to look interesting. Fashionable and not as though I have given up on life. So I like my long skirts and long boots. Or tight trousers and long boots....I care terribly about what I look like.

I also like to keep my brain acive....so I read Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins.....but I pray to God to keep me interested in life and I thank God for all the blessings I have received......so I am a bit of a paradox I suppose. I'm a happy paradox....That would be a good title for a novel....hmmmmm.....

Penelope:
Also, my bookshop is closing down...I can't imagine life without my wonderful characters whom I encounter at the bookstore...but everything must change....and a daresay I'll get used to it...

I'm way off topic here and I apologize, I had a wonderful used book dealer near my home that I visited regularly, I got to know the proprietors quite well as a result, I found myself sometimes hanging out at their shop not so much to purchase something to read but just to hang out and discuss the books on their shelves or book dealing in general, sometimes books were just part of the conversation. once I even volunteered to repair an electrical issue with the shop owners commuter vehicle, It was like a hangout for me, they were friendly people, there was about the place a small but very interesting community. There's nothing like a friendly "Hello" and "What are you reading lately", It was a fun challenge to try and stump the book dealer on obtaining something out of print. For instance, I have on my shelves an old Penguin paper back by Robert L. Pike with the original title Mute Witness That came from the UK. The book was adapted too a Steve McQueen movie titled "Bullitt".