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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Flann 5
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Flann 5 wrote:
Here's your involuntary visit to the dentist's chair Bishop. I've gone to this thread to get your explanation of evil in our world.



Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

O.k. so only acts done with intent to do evil should be called evil.


Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.

So what about human cruelty to animals?


As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
All we ever do or can do is compete or cooperate because we are evolving creatures.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

Note here that "what Christians see as something to blame,evil, that is competition, actually deserves a huge thanks for being available to us." "We must do good and evil."
What Christians mistakenly call moral evil is really just evolutionary competition and is something we should be grateful for.


There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

"This is how things are and should be." We all must do what some (Christians no doubt) will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
As we compete for survival and resources and mating reproductive success we create losers in this competition but none of this is evil it's just that some less enlightened people think it is.
How do we create these losers in this competition Bishop?




Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive.
Our default position is to cooperate or to do good. I offer this clip as proof of this. You will note that we default to good as it is better for survival.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

This is interesting "Our default position is to cooperate and do good." If we are "wired" in any way it is to cooperate according to you. So competing is actually against our default wiring?.


What your video shows is that babies have a rudimentary ability to discern and approve or disapprove of helpful and unhelpful actions.We have a moral sense innately perhaps.


Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

So you cannot help but do evil and therefore can not be blamed by God for anything you do. Doing evil is forced on us by evolution and we must do evil as we compete and create losers.
Earlier you say that only acts done with intent can be called evil. How do you explain evil acts done with intent? What's the cause of that evil?


Regards
DL
I honestly don't see how on the basis of your philosophy you can call anything evil,immoral,unjust or satanic. I note though that you major on making moral judgements.
I constructed this post badly so am underlining my comments to distinguish them more clearly from Bishop's.
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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"So what about human cruelty to animals?"

Likely a touch of insanity that might not pass mens rea.

If it does. Your point.

"How do you explain evil acts done with intent? "

Evolution.

Regards
DL
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Flann 5
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:"So what about human cruelty to animals?"

Likely a touch of insanity that might not pass mens rea.
Everyone who abuses animals is insane so not responsible?
Gnostic Bishop wrote:How do you explain evil acts done with intent? "

Evolution.
How does evolution explain evil acts done with intent? Don't just paste and copy the same stuff,give an explanation of how evolution does this.
Let's say I accept your premises. Doing evil is actually forced on us by evolution. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete to create losers in this competition. You say then that we cannot help but do evil.
Now if evolution forces people to do evil acts with intent your conclusion is there can be no blame attached to it. Some deluded people might think it's evil but it's just evolutionary competition creating losers.
So a judge, say in a case of intentional murder where one guy kills another in a fight over resources (women for mating and reproductive success) would be deluded to think this was an evil act when it's just evolutionary competition forced on us.

In fact on your reasoning he could not be found guilty of moral evil even if it was with intent since it was forced on him and we just think it was evil.
No,we owe evolutionary competition a huge thanks for being available to us and creating winners and losers.
The murdered guy just lost in this competition but that's how things are and should be.
Did the murderer intend to harm and kill him? Yes he did, for his mating and reproductive success and the other guy was in competition so had to go.
In fact we can do evil without intent. Like negligence. In my job I had to do daily checks on fire safety in the nursing home then fill in a form indicating whether all the safety features were in order or not.
Suppose one day I don't feel like doing this chore and just tick all the boxes on the safety check form, but there is actually an electrical fault or the warning safety systems are not working,and that night a fire breaks out.
The result is disastrous and people die. I didn't intend to kill anyone but my negligence had a direct bearing on what happened.
If I had done the check a fault would have been detected and the fire would have been prevented.
Of course I know I should have done the checks so that was a wrong moral choice and I understood that there could be dire consequences if there was a fault, but it was very unlikely that there was, so I gambled on probabilities.
Last edited by Flann 5 on Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Flann

Do you wish to talk of human laws and standards or of God's.

My O.P. was speaking of God and his judgment yet most of what you are giving is of humans and our judgements.

They are not the same and you just conflate the issues by mixing them.

Do you want to talk of men and our laws or of God's?

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:Flann

Do you wish to talk of human laws and standards or of God's.
Hi Bishop,
Still bashing us evil Christians I see.
In many cases like murder the standards are the same. But if you want to keep it simple explain how in the naturalistic worldview evolution explains evil actions with intent?
And taking what you presented, how someone can be held responsible for such actions if evolutionary competition forces evil on us and Christians just "think" this is real moral evil. You can keep it in the human realm and that's fine.
You say that evolution explains evil in our world quite well.
O.k so explain how evolution explains intentional evil actions where that person is sane.
Last edited by Flann 5 on Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Flann 5 wrote:[
quote="Gnostic Bishop"]Flann

Do you wish to talk of human laws and standards or of God's.
Hi Bishop,
Still bashing us evil Christians I see.
A nice way to continue what was a civil discussion.

What do you see that is bashing?

Which word exactly so that I can see what you think you see.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:A nice way to continue what was a civil discussion.

What do you see that is bashing?

Which word exactly so that I can see what you think you see.
I meant on the other thread. Are you not bashing Christians and Christianity? I could pick from a few. My comment was partly in jest as a sort of business as usual quip.
So let's have your explanation on evolution and intentional acts of evil.
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Flann 5 wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:A nice way to continue what was a civil discussion.

What do you see that is bashing?

Which word exactly so that I can see what you think you see.
I meant on the other thread. Are you not bashing Christians and Christianity? I could pick from a few. My comment was partly in jest as a sort of business as usual quip.
So let's have your explanation on evolution and intentional acts of evil.
So you mix threads and I am expected to keep up with you and reply even when I have no idea of what you speak of. You are so busy trying to attack and insult that you will draw from any quarter. Quite the character trait buddy. That really makes me want to chat. Not.

The last time you competed for a job, you knew someone else would lose the competition. Right?

Do you think the loser thought evil had befallen him?

You intended for him to lose when you entered the competition. Right?

There are three question marks here. Give three answers or go away. If you do not connect my dots, then you will not follow the logic trail.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Flann 5 wrote:You say that evolution explains evil in our world quite well.
O.k so explain how evolution explains intentional evil actions where that person is sane.
Flann 5 wrote:And taking what you presented, how someone can be held responsible for such actions if evolutionary competition forces evil on us.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:The last time you competed for a job, you knew someone else would lose the competition. Right?

Do you think the loser thought evil had befallen him?
No I don't Bishop. What you say is that evolution explains evil in our world quite well.
I'm asking how evolution explains this?

Let's take an example if you like. How does evolution explain Saddam Hussein's gassing of the Kurds? Just take this one question if you think I'm complicating things.
Last edited by Flann 5 on Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

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Flann 5 wrote:
Flann 5 wrote:You say that evolution explains evil in our world quite well.
O.k so explain how evolution explains intentional evil actions where that person is sane.
Flann 5 wrote:And taking what you presented, how someone can be held responsible for such actions if evolutionary competition forces evil on us.
Gnostic Bishop wrote:The last time you competed for a job, you knew someone else would lose the competition. Right?

Do you think the loser thought evil had befallen him?
No I don't Bishop. What you say is that evolution explains evil in our world quite well.
I'm asking how evolution explains this?

Let's take an example if you like. How does evolution explain Saddam Hussein's gassing of the Kurds? Just take this one question if you think I'm complicating things.
I can explain the large picture but you have to understand the small one first.

You are trying to tell the teacher how to teach.

You have the three questions above to answer before the teacher can continue to teach.

Regards
DL
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