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Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

Have you seen this rather well done movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

They end asking about a God who tortures babies as God did to King David’s baby.
God also killed many innocent babies in his great flood as well as the innocent first born of Egypt.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/ ... -baby.html

Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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DL
youkrst

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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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GB wrote:Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?
it all depends on the babies, for example

Image

or

Image
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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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I hear you.

Its a shame that so many Christians have no problem forgiving God and even praising him for his just punishments.

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DL
youkrst

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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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well he doesn't want to hurt the babies, but them babies have sin in 'em, we are all fallen sinners bereft of hope if we remain outside of christ by refusing to accept him as our personal lord and saviour, i mean as the good book says

Psalm 51:5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

so as these sinful babies grow up unrepentant and manifest the sinful nature they are born with eventually it becomes necessary to send them to hell, i mean God doesn't like it

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

but what can He do, He must send them unrepentant sinner babies all growed up into unrepentant children of the Devil

2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

yes it's so frustrating being God, You love 'em but you are powerless to contravene their free will, which You gave them, talk about hoisted on someone elses petard :lol:

what an absolute crock of errrr gold is orthodox doctrine :sick:
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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youkrst wrote:well he doesn't want to hurt the babies, but them babies have sin in 'em, we are all fallen sinners bereft of hope if we remain outside of christ by refusing to accept him as our personal lord and saviour, i mean as the good book says

Psalm 51:5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

so as these sinful babies grow up unrepentant and manifest the sinful nature they are born with eventually it becomes necessary to send them to hell, i mean God doesn't like it

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

but what can He do, He must send them unrepentant sinner babies all growed up into unrepentant children of the Devil

2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

yes it's so frustrating being God, You love 'em but you are powerless to contravene their free will, which You gave them, talk about hoisted on someone elses petard :lol:

what an absolute crock of errrr gold is orthodox doctrine :sick:
No argument for sure.

Strange though that God, at the end of days, can only kill instead of cure those he will not have patience enough to wait for even though scriptures say that that is his intention.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

These say he will save us while other verses say he will destroy is.

Darn contradictions. God just can't make up his mind.

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DL
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

Have you seen this rather well done movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

They end asking about a God who tortures babies as God did to King David’s baby.
God also killed many innocent babies in his great flood as well as the innocent first born of Egypt.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/ ... -baby.html

Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

Regards
DL
I find these kinds of criticisms common in the new atheist school of biblical criticism. I've provided previously a Christian response to these kinds of arguments by Peter J Williams which anyone who cares to can find on youtube.
I find a great deal of distortion and the taking of things out of context is typical of these critics.
God is the one who gives life. If you want to say that God does not exist that's one thing but the argument is that the biblical God is cruel etc. The giver of life can take life.
Within the context of biblical revelation this child has an eternal existence and will be resurrected.David recognised this when he said that he would go to be with him in the future.
I recommend William's talk for a fuller response to these kinds of arguments.
On the other hand Bishop himself informs us that according to him, because of evolution we must compete and cooperate and this creates winners and losers. We should be thankful though because it helps us survive and many things that are considered evil are in fact necessary to this end.
A lion may kill the cubs of a deposed lion in order to spread it's genes and have it's own progeny but this is all part of the necessary process of evolution.
By parity of reasoning one tribe of humans might kill another including babies for territory and reproductive success. On the Darwinian model we too are animals, just smarter than the rest.
This is not my view. I'm following Bishop's logic on evolution and competing here but why is it not a moral issue for lions to do this but it is for homo sapiens,if you apply evolutionary and survival premises?
Dawkins and Michael Ruse see no moral necessity underlying evolution beyond survival and genes reproducing themselves.
Morality is an evolutionary adaptation and entirely illusory.
Bishop's moral outrage is nothing but self deception on his own premises.We must be thankful for these evolutionary forces even when they may be considered evil by others,according to him.
The apostles of rationality are often irrational. Dawkins and Krausse informing us that the universe comes from nothing and by verbal sleight of hand redefining nothing.
They are quite happy to entertain ideas of mythical landscapes and universes when it alleviates the problems of fine tuning and chemical evolution for abiogenesis.
Eugene Koonin frankly recognises the massive improbability mathematically and realistically of chemical evolution and heads for the mythical multiverse as get out of jail card.
Dawkin's arguments are not as rational as he claims. Here's one critique titled Dawkins Debunked
http://www.oxfordtutorials.com/Dawkins% ... ummary.htm
Sam Harris fares no better with his scientism and reductionism. This on the folly of Scientism.
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -scientism
Richard Carrier attempts to explain away fine tuning and gets a fail on basic logic from cosmologist Dr Luke Barnes
http://www.letterstonature.wordpress.co ... er-part-2/
This on top of his penchant for championing Christ myth theory.
Hitchens of course was the main proponent of the religion poisons everything dogma. An assertion so absurd and factually false that it must be symptomatic of a psychological aversion rather than reason.
In any case Prof John Lennox debated him on this and you can judge these things for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJMjpigwN3c
Last edited by Flann 5 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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"The giver of life can take life."

Tell that to doctors, fathers and mothers.

You show what your immoral beliefs have done to your humanity.

Regards
DL
Last edited by Gnostic Bishop on Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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Flann wrote:A lion may kill the cubs of a deposed lion in order to spread it's genes and have it's own progeny but this is all part of the necessary process of evolution.
It makes sense through the lens of evolution. How does Christianity explain this? Is the lion evil?
Flann wrote:Dawkins and Michael Ruse see no moral necessity underlying evolution beyond survival and genes reproducing themselves.
I don't see any moral necessity either. Where is the moral necessity in a lion killing another lion's cubs? This example isn't a mark against the cruelty of the view of evolution. The act itself is cruel, not the worldview through which we gain the most understanding of it. What is the truth? Did god make evil lions? Did the lion go to lion hell for killing cubs? Viewing this act through a religious worldview doesn't make sense.

The elephant in the room here is that evolution doesn't have a pretend omnibenevolent figure head. Viewing a cruel act through the lens of naturalism does not reflect poorly on naturalism. Yet at the same time, viewing a cruel act through the lens of Christianity does reflect poorly on Christianity. Because the cornerstone of the worldview is an entity that is supposedly omnibenevolent. You run into a bunch of issues right off the bat, like why such a being would create animals that kill other animals babies.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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Interbane wrote:Did god make evil lions? Did the lion go to lion hell for killing cubs? Viewing this act through a religious worldview doesn't make sense..
This goes to the incompatibility of Christianity and other religions with evolution, despite wishful thinking to the contrary.

The response to your question from religion would surely be that it is different with lions than with humans. But there was no such thing as a first human, it's gradual evolution all the way down. So when did humans begin? Evolution doesn't have to answer that question, because there is no non-arbitrary answer. But religion does. The fairy tale in the Bible is one answer.
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Re: Do you think that torturing a baby is ever justified?

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So when did humans begin? Evolution doesn't have to answer that question, because there is no non-arbitrary answer
Putting literalist theology aside for a moment:

Evolution doesn't HAVE to answer anything. As a scientific theory it SEEKS to explain all phenomena within its domain of study.
Theories seek to uncover natural laws that are "obeyed" (for lack of a better word).

What exactly was the mechanism that caused an animal to become "human"? Meaning, when did the phenomena of "humaness" begin?
Is that mechanism an arbitrary law of nature?
Are laws of nature actually arbitrary?

Are there any published articles on this?

Interbane,
Is it just all just an algorithm filled with semantic meaning? :)
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