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Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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Interbane

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Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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I'm intrigued at the other thread where Geo, Ant, Flann and I were discussing shame. I'd like to clean the slate and try discussing moral emotions from a different angle. I'd like to hear answers from anyone who chances across this, don't be afraid of looking dumb. Diversity is key.

Here are some questions. Read them, then respond in your own post before reading other people's answers. Even if you have things mixed up, I'd like to see first impressions.

1. What would a man without guilt act like?

2. What is it about guilt that feels different from shame, and which is worse?

3. What is it about embarrassment that is different from both shame and guilt?

4. What would a man without pride act like?

5. What is your most recent memory of feeling Elevated? ("Elevation is an emotion elicited by witnessing virtuous acts of remarkable moral goodness. It is experienced as a distinct feeling of warmth and expansion that is accompanied by appreciation and affection for the individual whose exceptional conduct is being observed. Elevation motivates those who experience it to open up to, affiliate with, and assist others. Elevation makes an individual feel lifted up and optimistic about humanity." - Wikipedia)

6. What is your most recent memory of feeling Gratitude?

7. Is there a small amount of selfishness in making another person feel gratitude?

8. Is there a small amount of guilt in making another person feel guilt or shame?
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geo

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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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Good idea for a discussion, Interbane. I'm still thinking about your questions. It seems to me that guilt and shame are very similar emotions. Both have to do with regret for having done something wrong or incorrect (or thinking about doing something wrong or incorrect). It seems, too, that both emotions steer us generally towards good social behavior. We feel shame and guilt when we perceive having done something that could displease our in group. Even a personal failing, such as sleeping late or eating too much junk food, might arise primarily from the fear of how others will see you. And obviously this perception is colored by cultural values. In some cultures, sleeping late and eating junk food might be perfectly okay, so these actions might not trigger emotions of shame and guilt?

We also have a perception of ourselves—the kind of person we want to be and the kind of person we want others to see. (I wonder if these are always in alignment?) If we do something that is at odds with that perception of ourselves, it causes shame or guilt.

As for question 1) What would a man without guilt act like? I think he would act like a sociopath, which is defined as "a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience."

Though modern society emphasizes individuality—perhaps more than at any time in the past—we are still obviously predominantly social creatures. And probably most emotions can be linked to how well we play with others.

Again, much to think about here.
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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Though modern society emphasizes individuality—perhaps more than at any time in the past—we are still obviously predominantly social creatures. And probably most emotions can be linked to how well we play with others.
I think it depends on which society youre talking about here.

Western society emphasizes individuality. it is a culture of Guilt. (it's all about me, I'm a lone cowboy)

Eastern societies are more shame oriented cultures. it is a more holistic attitude - (one person's wrong shames us all).

This may be a nice little piece on it by some Stanford person

http://psych.stanford.edu/~tsailab/PDF/yw07sce.pdf
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Interbane

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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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Geo wrote:As for question 1) What would a man without guilt act like? I think he would act like a sociopath, which is defined as "a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience."
I think you might be right. But consider this. Psychopaths who have a degenerated prefrontal cortex can still be "prosocial psychopaths", due to their theory of mind. They can know what to do intellectually, and calculate why they should be good based on theory rather than emotion. The benefits of reciprocal altruism are sometimes great, and that truth can be seen without the feedback mechanisms of moral emotions. But I agree that such a person would at least sometimes act anti-social or exceptionally selfish and arrogant. I think it depends on their empathy. Can they empathize with others? How is empathy related to guilt?
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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ant wrote:Eastern societies are more shame oriented cultures. it is a more holistic attitude - (one person's wrong shames us all).
This is great, I haven't considered this. Some societies build value systems around different moral emotions. The moral emotions are feedback mechanisms for proper behavior, so if you want to promote certain behaviors, you build a system of morality around it. Having shame apply to all members of a society is powerful. I could see it as an almost unbreakable force in a small tribe.

It's obvious, of course, but I'm considering all this through a different lens. This is similar to what DWill mentioned a while back, that different cultures construct different morals depending on the needs of the society. Desert dwelling nomads would sanctify water, where island dwellers would sanctify trees.
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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"different cultures construct different morals depending on the needs of the society. Desert dwelling nomads would sanctify water, where island dwellers would sanctify trees."

So is it all relative according to the needs of a particular culture or tribe?

Tribe A is losing members fast due to illness, accidents, and for being at war with tribe B who has increased in size.

Tribe A finds Tribe C who is bigger than both tribe A and B substantially.

Tribe A begins kidnaping and raping women from tribe C.

Tribe C fends them off. They lost numbers but it didnt risk their viability. They are still large in population.

Tribe A eventually begins to recover its numbers.

Why is this immoral from a naturalist persoective?
Tribe A assured its survival by performing an action it considered neccessary for survival.
In nature doesnt the ends justify the means?
Granted these tribal people arent "modern" in comparison, but in their context they are.
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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I think about half of your questions might be impossible to accurately answer if your respondents are not sociopaths and are relatively emotionally healthy. Not joking either.
The emotional brain is actually the oldest part of our brain and has been hardwired in us for hundreds of thousands of years.

Even roaches are now tbought to display some emotion. Did you know that?

Imagine not being human for a minute:
What does that FEEL like?
The question is already nonsensical because youve been asked how it feels not to feel.

What would a man without guilt act like?
Hiw would it feel not to experience the emotion of guilt?
I guess we could start pointing our finger at the sociopath. But we wouldnt really know how it feels not to feel guilt.

:P
Last edited by ant on Sat May 30, 2015 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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ant wrote:Tribe A is losing members fast due to illness, accidents, and for being at war with tribe B who has increased in size.

Tribe A finds Tribe C who is bigger than both tribe A and B substantially.

Tribe A begins kidnaping and raping women from tribe C.

Tribe C fends them off. They lost numbers but it didnt risk their viability. They are still large in population.

Tribe A eventually begins to recover its numbers.

Why is this immoral from a naturalist persoective?
This is immoral because tribe A is responsible for a great deal of harm. Ant, you can see the answers for yourself. Why are you asking questions like this?
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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If morals are culturally determined then what emotions can be called moral if culture is a product of nature and nature only favors the fittest?


Apply this to super AI intelligence.
Would it be immoral of AI super intelligence to eradicate humans?
How would you convince AI of that if AI did away with emotion?
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Re: Roundtable discussion on Moral Emotions

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Interbane wrote:
ant wrote:Tribe A is losing members fast due to illness, accidents, and for being at war with tribe B who has increased in size.

Tribe A finds Tribe C who is bigger than both tribe A and B substantially.

Tribe A begins kidnaping and raping women from tribe C.

Tribe C fends them off. They lost numbers but it didnt risk their viability. They are still large in population.

Tribe A eventually begins to recover its numbers.

Why is this immoral from a naturalist persoective?
This is immoral because tribe A is responsible for a great deal of harm. Ant, you can see the answers for yourself. Why are you asking questions like this?

You mean because it wasnt nice of tribe A?
Its wrong because it wasnt nice.
(Of course we all can agree with that)

Okay.
Its wrong becauese it wasnt nice.

The most profound truths are the simplest.

"Thou shalt not kill"
Last edited by ant on Sat May 30, 2015 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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