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Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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lehelvandor
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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Eh? What is this and how don't you actually get the very same points stated with sarcasm in my earlier posts?
Why again ask questions about already covered ground? it clearly said even in the quote how arbitrary that selection is, how criteria is questionable etc. etc.

And even in original post, what do you think the panda example meant and covered? How can you ask these questions after all those points, especially when they repeat the already covered ground? you yourself quoted "of course sometimes similarities between some species define the selection of subjects, but we have to wonder whether sometimes there are much much more subjective and even casual selection criteria at work..." but then you ask about what I think about where humans think they are in relation to animals? This is deranged beyond words.

What exactly are you after here again apart from above demonstrated circular sophism?

And pardon me for not being glued to this thread and responding within 2 minutes :))))))) ... good night :)
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ant

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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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You always seem to say a whole lot without ever having addressed anything directly.

Good night.
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lehelvandor
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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Still not clear that it was already addressed directly in the first two posts already, if you read them at all? you even quoted what is answer to your later 3 questions :) and I even made with very easy analogies.

Here's a question: what is the objective process by which one goes from a funny article about Ignobel-worthy research to a (stunningly circular and ignoring all previous points) big rant about atheism and humanism?

Interesting rational process, definitely. And yes that is sarcasm again, as it was totally lost on some in first few posts already. Even going back to my panda analogy that was just so simple it screams.
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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So far I have an open can of worms and something about farm animals loving to take long rides in trucks
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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Ant, there is absolutely no reason for talking to people that way you do. I just read this thread and it seems your entire goal is to stir up yet another battle between atheists and "whatever" it is you advocate but are afraid to label. Can you please try to be nicer?
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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Okay yes.

I just thought the study was silly, not Lehe.

The topic went in another direction.
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lehelvandor
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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Of course it is silly, there is a smiley even in the very title of the thread, references were made from the very beginning to a number of other "cute" studies;
A non-personal i.e. non-ad hominem question was posed on how subjective reactions, with or without biochemical mechanism behind it, make people invest vast amounts of money in things like "save the panda".

However, we immediately ended up in personal and ad hominem points. At which point my sarcasm, too, was inevitable.

I am still hoping that it is possible to rationally debate how aesthetics can be sometimes equated by "us" as species with ethical criteria.

Amongst all the flaming rants, there happens to be a related point: namely, we, as species, may casually rank higher animals or our own kind depending on sometimes arbitrary circumstances and motivations.

See the vast amounts of funds gathered from ordinary people by animal welfare charities and the funds given by the same to e.g. British Heart Foundation or Cancer Research UK (which, despite its name, is actually a charity that then funds and gets involved in named research).

Ergo puppy eyes make us take very deep ethical and moral decisions - hence my panda reference, too in 2nd post from me.

But whilst such powerful "cuteness ethics" are at work in some of our attitudes and decision making, we as species get into similarly regular and important self-contradictions with our own species' welfare.

See the advertising about the plight of children drinking polluted water in the 3rd world. The advertising for a bona fide charity simply has to resort to Sergio Leone close-ups of stereotypically cute children's faces - otherwise the funds it gathers would be a fraction of what it manages to get.

The core cause in that advert is an objective, even highly moral and ethical one.

But "with us lot", humans, it can only serve that cause by resorting to basic biochemistry-induced emotions to achieve its goal.

That is, for us homo sapiens, a disgrace. We are not as rational at all as we would like to think... cue again the panda as analogy, although it goes into superb George Carlin territory in its apparent "ethics".
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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lehelvandor wrote:That is, for us homo sapiens, a disgrace. We are not as rational at all as we would like to think... cue again the panda as analogy, although it goes into superb George Carlin territory in its apparent "ethics".
Save the planet. Save the whale! I know exactly which George Carlin performance you're talking about. It's priceless.

I think those instincts that make kittens adorable and that make us fear rats and snakes are still pretty helpful. Snakes can be poisonous and rats carry diseases. We're better off staying away from them.

When we see a creature in trouble, we want to help it. The story of the mouse that pulls a thorn from the lion's paw is emotionally resonant to us. Why is that? It might be based on a basic tit-for-tat impulse. But you could also say it has something to do with what Stephen Pinker calls our "better angels."

When my family first moved to the country many years ago, my mother would actually speed up to run over a black snake crossing the road. It turns out black snakes are harmless to humans and very important to the ecosystem. You could say we are biologically programmed to fear them. But intellectually, we understand that snakes serve an important role. We may like kittens more than snakes, but we understand that every critter is important. And I don't think you could make a very rational argument why a cat is better than a snake.
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lehelvandor
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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Absolutely :) , priceless - especially how he deduces that actually a lot of the eco-warrior zeal is based on how some just want to park their giant Volvo somewhere nice & green... Again on the surface it's just funny but gosh... Jay Leno said about why Prius became a flashy statement and people drove up and down Rodeo Drive with it: we all like to have everyone know the good work we do anonymously.
Anyway, digressing - but the statistical overlap between those people and those who set up vast operations and organisations for "save the xy" based on emotion is probably very strong :)
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Re: Biochemistry and puppy dogs :)

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And, yet, the pro-environment movement is very beneficial, even if their position is not always well thought through. You gave the example of the Prius, which is not as environmentally friendly as it may seem at first glance. You're sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul. And the local environmental group where I live really works hard to give coal a bad name, but they aren't saying what's going to replace it.

But these environmentalists put forth political pressure to make our environmental laws stronger and I feel that this is needed for balance. Otherwise, conservatives would dearly love to get rid of many good environmental restrictions as they have in North Carolina where I live.

By the way, I've personally paid a price of our cute puppy dog weakness. My wife was working for the Cavalier rescue organization and we would occasionally bring in a poor homeless dog, supposedly on a temporary basis. Alas, my wife has a very strong nurturing instinct and over time we amassed five dogs that somehow became our permanent pets. I put my foot down . . . a little too late it would seem.
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