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Christianity and the Secular State
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- DWill
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Re: Christianity and the Secular State
Yes, often people have interpreted "Render unto Caesar" as emphasizing the narrow scope of civil authority. But it's safe to say that the face-value reading would have always predominated, whereby there is a rough equality of the two spheres. Regardless, the important question might be whether all it took for Christians to develop a secular/spiritual split was a line of scripture, or if this was more a product of long evolution within the environment of the Roman world. A religion would be shaped by its environment, in the historical way of looking at things. What devout believers don't seem to accept (just in my experience of them) is that the religion did evolve and develop, and was influenced by the environment (and exerted its own influence over it, obviously). Jesus founded a church just before he died, and there you have it, is a simplified, but not inaccurate summary of how Christianity was made, in the traditional view.
- DWill
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Re: Christianity and the Secular State
Wow, really interesting, Flann. I'll watch that video later on. As I've said, I have little background, but would like to be more up to speed on the history. I'm reading a popular history book called Pagans, by James J. O'Donnell, which just came out. O'Donnell is talking about Constantine's own "conversion," which looks to be both superstitiously and politically motivated. Apparently, by putting the cross on his soldiers' shields, Constantine won a major battle against his Roman rival and in the way of Roman generals attributed the victory to the god he had gone into battle with. Thereafter, it looked to Constantine as though Christianity was the way to go, although he didn't become baptized until near death, reportedly to be able to continue to do bad stuff without fear of everlasting penalty.Flann 5 wrote: So God rules providentially over the rise and fall of empires but the kingdom of God in this world is not political in any real sense.
The ascent of Constantine and removal of this clear distinction is a radical departure from the essential concept of a spiritual kingdom not propagated or buttressed by the sword.
But that's what happened,and the idea of pagan conversion by imperial decree is antithetical to the core ideas of a spiritual kingdom based on preaching the gospel and free response to that.
Tom Holland in his book Millennium sees the conflict between Henry iv,the German "Caesar" and Pope Gregory as a defining historical moment where Gregory seeks to reclaim autonomy for the Catholic church and assert the separation of church and state.
Holland sees this as the birth of modernity and ultimately the secular state with some unintended consequences.
Maybe he's right here though, there are other views of history too
Here's a brief interview with Holland where he talks about some of the central themes of his work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuos23LlMBM
- Flann 5
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Re: Christianity and the Secular State
Thanks Dwill,DWill wrote: Wow, really interesting, Flann. I'll watch that video later on. As I've said, I have little background, but would like to be more up to speed on the history. I'm reading a popular history book called Pagans, by James J. O'Donnell, which just came out. O'Donnell is talking about Constantine's own "conversion," which looks to be both superstitiously and politically motivated. Apparently, by putting the cross on his soldiers' shields, Constantine won a major battle against his Roman rival and in the way of Roman generals attributed the victory to the god he had gone into battle with. Thereafter, it looked to Constantine as though Christianity was the way to go, although he didn't become baptized until near death, reportedly to be able to continue to do bad stuff without fear of everlasting penalty.
Constantine comes across to me as a pretty standard Caesar wannabe who seizes power violently. His mother I gather was Christian in some sense and there is an ambivalence about Constantine which suggests a superstitious adoption of Christianity.But this in itself is not entirely Machiavellian but sincere,albeit grounded superstitiously perhaps.
That interview with Holland is brief and the book itself is naturally more detailed. The conflict between Gregory and Henry does look like a turning point historically, where the question of church and state re-emerges from the shadows of the Roman Empire.
I don't see Gregory as particularly Christian and these guys like Constantine and Gregory, would have a lot of explaining to do about how to reconcile their actions with what they claim to represent.
O' Donnell's book sounds interesting and I'm sure sheds light on Constantine and the pagan world.
I'm sure you will find some interesting ideas there on Christianity, and the pagan world and what emerged from that conflict.
Last edited by Flann 5 on Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
- ant
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Re: Christianity and the Secular State
Just some thoughts:
There's a common misconception that Constantine's treatment of Christianity was that he made it into an established state religion. My understanding is that he did not. He effectuated the decriminalization of it.
It wasn't until Theodosius that Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire.
It's reported Constantine had a dream to put the sign of Christ on his soldier's shields.
There's debate related to the sincerity of Constantine's conversion to Christianity. I think the evidence swings both ways:
Constantine converted completely - Constantine converted partially.
Was it for political gain?
Here's what Garrett G. Fagan of Penn State says:
Eventually he stopped placating paganism and began founding Christian churches throughout the empire with enormous repercussions for the future of Europe.
There's a common misconception that Constantine's treatment of Christianity was that he made it into an established state religion. My understanding is that he did not. He effectuated the decriminalization of it.
It wasn't until Theodosius that Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire.
It's reported Constantine had a dream to put the sign of Christ on his soldier's shields.
There's debate related to the sincerity of Constantine's conversion to Christianity. I think the evidence swings both ways:
Constantine converted completely - Constantine converted partially.
Was it for political gain?
Here's what Garrett G. Fagan of Penn State says:
It was the norm for emperors to identify with a number of Gods. Constantine was unique (and highly controversial) in that he identified with a novel God. Because he did, he brought trouble to himself and was enmeshed with pagan/Christianity crises.Constantine clearly recognized the usefulness of claims to divine guidance, but this does not mean that his conversion to Christianity was a sham. Religious sincerity and political acumen are not mutually exclusive traits.
Eventually he stopped placating paganism and began founding Christian churches throughout the empire with enormous repercussions for the future of Europe.