Yep, got email will try to contribute if possible. Sorry Chris, which question ?

I just mean to ask him to comment on this poll topic.

He said, "...why a benevolent God would allow the radical evil of the Holocaust to happen."

There is a good question in there somewhere but I am too tired to find it right now.

Ah of course I also am suffering from drastic lack of sleep, on my gravestone they might write "the man that was too stupid to sleep"

Yeah it would be good to see their responses, no doubt after a good sleep it'll be obvious to us and we'll thrash out a good q.

Happens to me all the time where something I'm working on seems impossible after hours of trying then I wake up the next morning and laugh and get it done in 15 mins...

Damn I'm a fool not to sleep, tenacity is a double edged sword fer sure.

Just to respond to a few thoughts here. The omnipotence and omniscience of God is inferred from the vast complexity of the universe and living things and not just on the basis that the bible says so.
The biblical message is that God gives man real freedom with real consequences for evil or for good. He also commands us to turn from evil and has set a time for judgement of humans according to their deeds whether good or evil.
It's interesting hearing the suggestions that God should be constantly intervening by killing would be murderers. That's effectively pre-emptive retribution.
Many complain that capital punishment for pre-meditated murder is barbaric but this is just what is being called for. The very idea of retributive justice is considered unworthy of enlightened humanity,by many.
Giving humans real freedom has real consequences and indeed many human acts are truly evil and harmful to others.
However God is the ultimate judge and will render judgement and justice.
You can say that if you were God you would have devised a way for there to be no evil and suffering. Whether you could have meaningful choices and real humans in this scenario is very doubtful.
In reality there can be no ultimate justice without God and the atheist must face how a Hitler can simply disappear into self chosen nothingness having perpetrated immense evil.
God is active in history from a biblical perspective and it's worth remembering that the Nazis were actually defeated in the war.

Flann wrote:It's interesting hearing the suggestions that God should be constantly intervening by killing would be murderers. That's effectively pre-emptive retribution.
Many complain that capital punishment for pre-meditated murder is barbaric but this is just what is being called for.

It's not pre-emptive for an omniscient god that knows all possible futures. It's certain retribution. Down this path is another difficult tangent question, perhaps for another thread. If god knows exactly what you will do, how do you justify saying you have free will?

Flann wrote:You can say that if you were God you would have devised a way for there to be no evil and suffering. Whether you could have meaningful choices and real humans in this scenario is very doubtful.

Which necessarily means god is not omnipotent. If he cannot come up with a solution that removes evil, yet leaves free will(with meaningful choices) in place, he cannot have the 3 O's. But then, he created Adam in a way that would lead to Adam's inevitable consumption of the fruit of evil. Even from the start, god could not possibly have been omnibenevolent.

Consider what you're saying. I see a young child in front of me. I think 3 thoughts - one is to give the child candy, one is to smile and walk away, one is to abuse the child. How is my will any less free if the third option were removed from my head? In this instance, the way you've forced the analysis, is that free will is only free if it allows for evil options. There are endless "good" options even without the evil ones. How is my choice meaningful and free if I'll go to prison anyways? It's not like I'm adding value to the good choices by refraining from the bad chioces. The more you analyze this, the more it breaks down.

From your perspective, it may seem like everyone here is blaming god. But how can we blame something we know isn't real? What we're blaming is the faulty manmade concept. The concept, at least as defined with the 3 O's, is flawed, no matter what you appeal to. Either you redefine god, or you abandon logic like ant and Stahrwe. I'm not judging the choice, but I'm sure it's easy to sense my opinion.

Also keep in mind, in Interbane's post above, the word "child" stands for "billions of men, women, and children throughout recorded and unrecorded history".

Youkrst, please know that the wisdom in your long post several posts up was not missed by me. Your efforts were not in vain. That has to have been one of your best contributions to date.

Flann 5 wrote: God is active in history from a biblical perspective and it's worth remembering that the Nazis were actually defeated in the war.

This is why people who believe in the Bible have such a hard time reconciling their views. It would be one thing if your God NEVER intervened in history. But since he apparently has (even if you're not a literalist you have to believe that, don't you?), and for some reason was really active during Biblical times, then his interventions are at the same time extremely vicious (murdering innocents) and extremely pathetic. Hey, did you see, Nazi Germany eventually lost! You’re welcome, my children! Don’t forget to kneel on Sunday!

So instead of realizing this absurdity, it’s just those “mysterious ways.”

Interbane wrote:Which necessarily means god is not omnipotent. If he cannot come up with a solution that removes evil, yet leaves free will(with meaningful choices) in place, he cannot have the 3 O's. But then, he created Adam in a way that would lead to Adam's inevitable consumption of the fruit of evil. Even from the start, god could not possibly have been omnibenevolent.

Consider what you're saying. I see a young child in front of me. I think 3 thoughts - one is to give the child candy, one is to smile and walk away, one is to abuse the child. How is my will any less free if the third option were removed from my head? In this instance, the way you've forced the analysis, is that free will is only free if it allows for evil options. There are endless "good" options even without the evil ones. How is my choice meaningful and free if I'll go to prison anyways? It's not like I'm adding value to the good choices by refraining from the bad chioces. The more you analyze this, the more it breaks down.

You are saying here that God should create pre-programmed beings only capable of making good choices. Saying that because God is omniscient and omnipotent he should be able to make robots who can make real choices is the same as saying he can make a square circle. It's not a matter of omniscience or omnipotence.
The good choice is not really good without the bad choice. It's just programming.
And Dexter, don't forget we're all just dancing to the music of our D.n.a. We don't do evil or good anyway.We just evolved that way.

Flann 5 wrote: And Dexter, don't forget we're all just dancing to the music of our D.n.a. We don't do evil or good anyway.We just evolved that way.

I know you're being flippant, but indeed you should try to reconcile your worldview with what we know about the world, not what you read in an ancient fairy tale.

Many smart people have tried to think about how to approach morality in the world we actually live in. It may not be as satisfying as "whenever the occasionally murderous and intervening God says it's good, then it's good."