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Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

#136: Feb. - Mar. 2015 (Non-Fiction)
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geo

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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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ant wrote: It is a branch of literalism that has been at odds with scientific explanandum, not Catholicism.
This is simply false. The Catholic Church is a veritable mother lode of irrational beliefs very much at odds with science. The very concept of "original sin" comes from the the fall of man in the Book of Genesis. As we've discussed before, evolutionary theory precludes the existence of a first human. Thus, no Adam and Eve. The entire theology of the Church is built on the literalization of a myth.

Then we have the belief that only those who are baptized can be saved, although it's really just an inititiation rite.

Catholics still pay lip service to transubstantiation—that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ. This is Catholic doctrine.

There's the idea of the Holy Trinity—God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Uh, lots of scientific problems there.

Papal infallibility?

The Catholic Church has declared that evolution is true, but on the other hand still professes the existence of a "soul" along with a lot of contradictory theological nonsense, of which only a small sampling is mentioned above.

Sagan was right. Many beliefs fostered under religious tradition have fallen by the wayside, exposed and debunked by science. I don't see how you can deny this.
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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ant wrote: Catholicism, for one, has never been on record as being at odds with science. Frankly, the Church was never "under fire" about evolution. Nothing in their cannon states denies evolution.
ant, I think Galileo might differ with you:
On this day in 1633, chief inquisitor Father Vincenzo Maculano da Firenzuola, appointed by Pope Urban VIII, begins the inquisition of physicist and astronomer Galileo Galilei. Galileo was ordered to turn himself in to the Holy Office to begin trial for holding the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun, which was deemed heretical by the Catholic Church. Standard practice demanded that the accused be imprisoned and secluded during the trial.

This was the second time that Galileo was in the hot seat for refusing to accept Church orthodoxy that the Earth was the immovable center of the universe: In 1616, he had been forbidden from holding or defending his beliefs. In the 1633 interrogation, Galileo denied that he "held" belief in the Copernican view but continued to write about the issue and evidence as a means of "discussion" rather than belief. The Church had decided the idea that the Sun moved around the Earth was an absolute fact of scripture that could not be disputed, despite the fact that scientists had known for centuries that the Earth was not the center of the universe.
Imo - the bible and the churches are to blame for a lot of disbelief among humanity. People, when they were eventually able to read for themselves, a) being actually literate and b) the bible actually being translated into English, Welsh or whatever, decided that a lot of what is written in the bible, beautiful though it often is, was myth and legend. Then they were tortured and burned for disputing that the Bible was the literal word of God or that the church was the mother of their souls. No wonder they washed their hands of the whole caboodle. I happen to believe that they threw the baby out with the bathwater and that we can have a very deep and rich and fulfilling spiritual life.....but I don't blame anyone for choosing to ignore it. Also, the faith in which a person grows up can often affect the violence with which we turn away from religion. Sagan was Jewish and obviously adored his parents and Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. I'm sure he found the death of his parents traumatic.
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He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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Hi, Penelope;

Thanks for your thoughts.

I got curious about Sagan's sources in this discussion about the witch hunts of Europe.

I believe his primary source is this book:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0226113078/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

Europe's Inner Demons: The Demonization of Christians in Medieval Christendom by Norman Cohn

Much of the preface can be read by previewing the book. It looks like something I am going to purchase myself so that I can hear it straight from the horse's mouth.
Norman Cohn work has received honors by his election as a Fellow of the British Academy.

Nearly all scientists like Sagan are poor at outlining the complexities of historical events, relationships, and schisms that occur within and between organizations. The schisms are often the primary cause of the radicalization of splinter groups.

Without proper historical context, abhorrent and criminal behavior is commonly held to be the behavior and actions of an entire period. Cohn supposedly adds the context of the gulf created by the protestant reformation during this time in history. The religious AND political systems were being turned upside down. Most of these crimes can be attributed to terrorist activities during the Protestant/Catholic divide.
I need to research this myself, though.

I do not look to scientists for serious historical discussions. They are not experts. Far from it. A man like Sagan who is trying to promote a worldview will cherry-pick from the historical record, commit composition fallacies, numerous amateur "historians fallacies," and hyper generalize, all for the sake of rhetoric.

The Galileo Affair is a perfect example. I've done some fairly deep reading on it and have listened to several lectures.
It is a highly complex event. It also is the most popular example of a historical event involving the Church that is given very superficial treatment by celebrity scientists for the sole purpose of demonizing all of Religion.

Thanks :)
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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The Galileo Affair is a perfect example. I've done some fairly deep reading on it and have listened to several lectures.
It is a highly complex event.
all well and good ant, but i dont think it's all about the "Galileo Affair"

the main thing with "religion" is faith, believing things without evidence.

God made man, man will burn in hell if he doesn't repent, yada yada, all well and good but you have to take it on faith, "your faith has made you whole"

the main thing with "science" is not faith, it's more reason, evidence, test, experiment etc etc

so in spite of all these great points you raise it still seems to me that certain people are resistant to the "just take it on faith" line, they rightly say "no, it'll take more than faith to convert me, just because God X says yada yada in book such and such is not sufficient cause for believing"

a leap of faith, thanks but no thanks.
Freethought holds that individuals should not accept ideas proposed as truth without recourse to knowledge and reason. Thus, freethinkers strive to build their opinions on the basis of facts, scientific inquiry, and logical principles, independent of any logical fallacies or the intellectually limiting effects of authority, confirmation bias, cognitive bias, conventional wisdom, popular culture, prejudice, sectarianism, tradition, urban legend, and all other dogmas. Regarding religion, freethinkers hold that there is insufficient evidence to support the existence of supernatural phenomena.[5]

A line from Clifford's Credo by the 19th-century British mathematician and philosopher William Kingdon Clifford describes the premise of freethought as: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."[6]
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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I picked up a copy of "Witch Craze" by L. Roper, an Oxford historical scholar.

Much of the prologue of the book discuses the need to critically examine the social, political, and religious psychological states of mind within the context of Europe's "witch craze"

The number of deaths in Europe that can be attributed to the witch craze can never be known exactly because in many regions the records of interrogations that led to convictions or exoneration have been destroyed, or are incomplete. Some records allude to "hundreds" of witches killed.

The land now known as Germany recorded the largest executions by far - around 25k.

By far, the greatest number of deaths were women over the age of 40.
Many that accused this age group were much younger women who's attitudes toward older women were hostile because a perceived threat to their fertility.

Young women who were thought to have found it difficult to become pregnant looked for scapegoats, so to speak.

Also in the context of the time, resources were scarce.
Older women either childless or not able to conceive were considered a threat to consuming much needed resources that the young were in need of.
Solution? Ostracize older women by fantastical means and justify with the enforcement of the ruling political/social governing body at the time - the church.

"In the case of witchcraft, the idea that old women were plotting to root out Christian folk and destroy Christendom made sense to people who were already worried about how their society could reproduce itslef and continue" - "Witch Craze"

This book is a deep and scholarly study of the witch hunting of Europe. It properly takes into account the totality of influences within the proper context of the time.

A common mistake of historical laymen and amateurs like Sagan is that they judge a time and people of the past based on current values and capabilities. Mostly for rhetorical purposes.
What you get is a very watered down version of history.
In Sagan and recently NTD, you get simpleton accusations like "how horrible the church and only the church has been" or "science and reason saved us all "

Progress comes in stages throughout history. That which has inhibited progress is usually a multi layered and complex situation. Rarely can you simply point to you thing and demonize it entirely.

Sagan does this often to advance his philosophy of scientism.
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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ant wrote:In Sagan and recently NTD, you get simpleton accusations like "how horrible the church and only the church has been" or "science and reason saved us all "
if i put your statement in less strident terms
A: thoughts like "how horrible the church has been" or "science and reason are much better"
contrast this modified statement with an opposing statement
B: thoughts like "how good the church has been" or "science and reason are much worse"
A: seems self evident B: seems absurd
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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ant wrote:A common mistake of historical laymen and amateurs like Sagan is that they judge a time and people of the past based on current values and capabilities. Mostly for rhetorical purposes.
What you get is a very watered down version of history.
And, yet, they used to burn people at the stake for being witches. hard to sugarcoat that.

So it seems Sagan has a point that people used to be much more superstitious than they are today.
-Geo
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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"And yet" does nothing to invalidate the point.

Neither does a "maybe so, but...,"
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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In the case of witchcraft, the idea that old women were plotting to root out Christian folk and destroy Christendom made sense to people who were already worried about how their society could reproduce itself and continue" - "Witch Craze"
Christian's killing Christian's, for the purpose's of food and sex. The Roper book does look like it provides great detail, as it should, it being based on the singular topic of witch's, CS's watered down version spares us some of the more glamorous aspects of witch hunting for sure, instead he uses his hunts to demonstrate the idea that as societies advance in time, so to their superstitions.
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Re: Chapter 7: The Demon-Haunted World

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geo wrote:

And, yet, they used to burn people at the stake for being witches. hard to sugarcoat that.

So it seems Sagan has a point that people used to be much more superstitious than they are today.
People used to gather in crowds to watch people being burned, have their heads chopped off, or dangle on a hangman's rope. Nothing to do with superstition that......just the cruelty thought acceptable because - everybody did it.

Eventually, the concept of compassion seems to seep through - it different times in different parts of the world. I hope so anyway.
Only those become weary of angling who bring nothing to it but the idea of catching fish.

He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad....

Rafael Sabatini
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