Flann 5 wrote:I think the big problem with Massey and Murdock is their failure to cite primary sources to substantiate their claims.
Apart from the failure of the dying and rising Gods thesis itself, this is a further problem.
This is not a matter of Christian bias but the requirement for relevant sources to support claims.
Here's such a critique of Massey's work highlighting this problem.
tektonics.org/lp/massjc.php
There is also the record of secular historians such as Tacitus and others.
youtube.com/watch?v=4bLlpiWh9-k
I wonder who it is that you think wrote the new testament gospels,when they wrote them, and what their purpose was in writing them as they did.
The dating is important as an early date explains why the people in Jerusalem believed in the public crucifixion of Christ in their city by Pontius Pilate, within living memory. On the other hand they would not have believed an invented story they would have known to be false.
Elliott Nesch and his "Zeitgeist Refuted" were thoroughly debunked long ago to the point of embarrassment:Flann 5: "I think Elliott Nesch in his "Zeitgeist Refuted" demonstrates the false premises of Astrotheology historically and the impossibility of any coherent and credible application of this to the gospels."
Nesch: "42 authors mention Jesus within 150 years of his life."
From my own experience, those who claim Astrotheology is false tend to know nothing about it because they have never studied the subject and simply dismiss it out of hand in order to shut down any discussion. They also rely heavily on others who also know nothing about it.Response: "It's not always just what devotees say that is wrong it can often be what they don't say. For example, not a single one of the "42 authors" ever met Jesus while he was alive. The four canonical Gospel writers were all anonymous until the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were added as authors late in the 2nd century. There is no contemporary eyewitness testimony for Jesus at all whatsoever. Nobody ever wrote about Jesus during his lifetime and the canonical gospels didn't exist as we have them today until around 180CE - that is what the literary and historical records show i.e. evidence that actually exists."
'Zeitgeist Refuted' by Elliot Nesch, Debunked
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... =19&t=3063
Primary sources and scholar commentary on them support Zeitgeist Part 1:
Sourcebook
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitg ... cebook.pdf
Primary Sources & Scholars cited in the ZG1 Sourcebook
http://www.truthbeknown.com/zeitgeistsources.html
Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes
http://truthbeknown.com/chrisforbeszeitgeist.html
Zeitgeist Part 1
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... =19&t=2997
Just more misinformation from people who have no idea what they're talking about. Flann 5, your sources (JP Holding/Tekton/Chris White and Mike Licona) all betray you due to their transparent Christian biases. They have no intention of ever being objective on the subject of astrotheology or the work by Acharya S/Murdock and have proven themselves worse than unreliable and untrustworthy on the subject. A person sincerely interested in the subject would be embarrassed to cite them as a credible source as they are merely out to shore up their Christian faith and euphoria at all costs - even if it means being dishonest.Flann 5: "I think the big problem with Massey and Murdock is their failure to cite primary sources to substantiate their claims."
Most are unaware of the fact that Gerald Massey was heavily peer reviewed by the top scholars and Egyptologists of his day:
Who Is Gerald Massey?
Scholars who've actually studied her work tend to be supportive of it:
"I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations." "I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock"
- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ ... _egypt.htm
"...In recent months or over the last year or so I have interviewed Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald and Robert Price all on the issue of mythicism ... when I spoke to these people I asked for their expertise collectively and what I got, especially from Fitzgerald and Robert Price, was that we should be speaking to tonights guest D.M. Murdock, author of 'Did Moses Exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver'."
- Aron Ra
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 432#p29432
"I have no objection to postulating a 'prehistoric' (i.e., prior to our earliest horizon on Christianity) phase to the heavenly Christ cult in which observations of the heavens helped shaped the Christ myth." "Acharya has that aspect of things sewn up!"
- Earl Doherty
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/vie ... 236#p26236
Earl Doherty defers to Acharya for the subject of astrotheology:
"A heavenly location for the actions of the savior gods, including the death of Christ, would also have been influenced by most religions' ultimate derivation from astrotheology, as in the worship of the sun and moon. For this dimension of more remote Christian roots, see the books of Acharya S"
- Earl Doherty, Jesus: Neither God Nor Man, (2009) page 153
"Your scholarship is relentless! ...the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."
- Dr. Ken Feder, Professor of Archaeology
"I can recommend your work whole-heartedly!"
- Dr. Robert Eisenman
"I've known people with triple Ph.D's who haven't come close to the scholarship in Who Was Jesus?"
- Pastor David Bruce, M.Div, North Park Seminary
"...I have found her scholarship, research, knowledge of the original languages, and creative linkages to be breathtaking and highly stimulating."
- Rev. Dr. Jon Burnham, Pastor, Presbyterian Church
Richard Carrier has never actually studied her work and is blatantly biased against it, which explains why his criticisms of her work contain sloppy and egregious errors. Carrier is simply not a reliable or credible source on the subject of Murdock's work. It's intellectually dishonest for him to even discuss it when he knows so little about it and it's especially unethical for Carrier, as a scholar, to maliciously smear and libel Murdock in all of his lectures:
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums ... 4771#p4771
Carrier needs to be called out on his unethical behavior by scholars and others as well. He owes Acharya S/Murdock an apology. The last thing we need in mythicism right now is this type of malevolence by Carrier of all people.
The Mythicist Position