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Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Interbane wrote:If there is a "gods-eye-view" where foreknowledge is complete, then that means there is a single future that is known. Knowing mere possibilities isn't omniscience. Only the knowledge of which possible futures will happen matches with the concept of omniscience. But if there is a single future, then the view is no different from Compatibilist free will(determinism).
I would agree that there is a single future known to God. At the same time God knows the outcomes of all possible hypothetical situations or at least that's the biblical view.

Man's nature is fallen and inclined but not compelled to evil.
It must be that God fore-ordains all that happens and that includes the evil he permits man to do. Against that you have clear commandments from God against evil and warnings of future judgement for evil and the innate moral sense given to man.
The idea of the best of all possible worlds must be weighed against the degrees of freedom given to created beings and the biblical view of the eternal existence of mankind.That's not the naturalist view, but the biblical one should include such considerations.
Arguably the original creation was a better world, nevertheless the freedom given potentially and actually resulted in rebellion, the fall,suffering and death. But this is the consequence of evil actions plainly warned against.
And God himself entered into creation in the incarnation of Christ and willingly endured death by crucifixion to make atonement for sins and provide a way of salvation for those who accept it.
I wouldn't want to be glib about human suffering which is real.From a biblical perspective Christ's own suffering and death is God's means of redemption.
Human suffering is a difficult subject which I don't think is as black and white as is sometimes portrayed. None of us possess the kind of omniscience that God does.From a Christian standpoint,the parable of the good Samaritan provides an outline of the kind of response, Jesus commends.

And just in response to one comment,I think that the attack on ant is uncalled for and unfair, particularly since he is in no position to reply.
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Interbane

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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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I would agree that there is a single future known to God.
There is no way in which this is different from the determinist perspective Flann. You’re saying that the future will play out in one very specific way, even if we would need to be omniscient to know what that future looks like.

How can you claim there is libertarian freedom of will in this case? How could someone have done otherwise, if what has happened is what god knew would happen?
It must be that God fore-ordains all that happens and that includes the evil he permits man to do.
What about the evil his inspired words caused? It is more than just “permitting” man to do something, it is instead "inspiring" the evil. You never did say anything about Westboro Baptist Church. It doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong, and it doesn’t matter if neither of us agrees with them. What matters is that their behavior is inspired by the bible. This is true even if the bible contains words that contradict the passages they favor. This is true even if they are overly prone to evil acts. This is true even if they would find inspiration for evil elsewhere. It is true no matter what appeal you make. And if god inspired the bible, and knew the effects his words would have, then he must be at least partially evil.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Interbane wrote:As was obvious in other threads, there are a number of theological problem when you consider libertarian free will. This is just one of them, one of the cracks in the worldview. But I think the issue is that the terms are all understood in slightly different connotations, or the arguments aren't expressed clearly enough.

If there is a "gods-eye-view" where foreknowledge is complete, then that means there is a single future that is known. Knowing mere possibilities isn't omniscience. Only the knowledge of which possible futures will happen matches with the concept of omniscience. But if there is a single future, then the view is no different from Compatibilist free will(determinism).

How could there be? Appealing to the ignorance of our perspective doesn't make a difference, because that is the same as in determinism as well(we don't know the future).

The theist has to give up either libertarian free will, or the idea that god knows which future will happen, therefore isn't omniscient.
It would be easier to ask a theist to re-define free will instead of God.

They always point back to A & E for their example of free will but disappear on me when I ask if commandments and threats of death annul free will.

Such is how Christian apologists argue free will.

In the exercise of our choices, scriptures by Paul give us two options. To be slaved to sin or be slaved to God.

No one likes it when I choose not to be a slave at all and dis God for wanting to own slaves.

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DL
I'm not sure if I completely comprehend what you're arguing here.
I am just your typical movie nerd, postcard collector and aspiring writer.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Movie Nerd wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Interbane wrote:As was obvious in other threads, there are a number of theological problem when you consider libertarian free will. This is just one of them, one of the cracks in the worldview. But I think the issue is that the terms are all understood in slightly different connotations, or the arguments aren't expressed clearly enough.

If there is a "gods-eye-view" where foreknowledge is complete, then that means there is a single future that is known. Knowing mere possibilities isn't omniscience. Only the knowledge of which possible futures will happen matches with the concept of omniscience. But if there is a single future, then the view is no different from Compatibilist free will(determinism).

How could there be? Appealing to the ignorance of our perspective doesn't make a difference, because that is the same as in determinism as well(we don't know the future).

The theist has to give up either libertarian free will, or the idea that god knows which future will happen, therefore isn't omniscient.
It would be easier to ask a theist to re-define free will instead of God.

They always point back to A & E for their example of free will but disappear on me when I ask if commandments and threats of death annul free will.

Such is how Christian apologists argue free will.

In the exercise of our choices, scriptures by Paul give us two options. To be slaved to sin or be slaved to God.

No one likes it when I choose not to be a slave at all and dis God for wanting to own slaves.

Regards
DL
I'm not sure if I completely comprehend what you're arguing here.
Christians say that A & E had a free will or could choose their path freely.

I think that threats of death and God's commands to choose a certain path negates any free will that A & E could have had. They were basically ordered to do God's will and not their own and when they did their will and not God's, he basically murdered them by denying them the tree of life.

Threats and commands negate the free will of the one being threatened or commanded.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil? Here are some of my views on this question.

I believe that God may be defined analytically as the inherent order of the universe, operating through the laws of natural science, and is therefore entirely good and not at all evil.

For the ethical questions of good and evil, this concept of God as natural order has direct implications for human action. If people behave in ways that enable flourishing, their actions are aligned with the principles of order and evolutionary adaptation and are therefore divine and Godly and good. If people behave in ways that promote destruction, their actions are Satanic and evil.

Against this framework, God and Satan are not intentional personal entities. God is a description of cosmic principles of order and complexity, while Satan is a description of the cosmic forces of disorder and entropy. Divine action promotes increased complexity of natural systems, while Satanic action reduces complexity.

Worship and theology can revision the Christian God to align to the scientific principles of evolutionary complexity, analysing the Bible to see its inherent evolutionary ethics.

The central principles of the Gospels in the Sermon on the Mount and the Last Judgment provide a highly adaptive ethical theory for how human civilization can evolve to enable increased global complexity and order.

The Bible enables us to imagine a goal of an ideal world to strive for where spirit and nature are integrated, and therefore presents an evolutionary teleology or sense of purpose and direction.

The principle for such a sense of evolutionary purpose should use the idea that we should separate the evil weeds from the good wheat that have grown together over the course of history. This analytical separation between good and evil means that we should analyse ideas and culture to find and support the good natural scientific ethics and reject the evil supernatural delusional errors.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Robert

You understand the evolutionary processes that control us and that the cooperation produces good but there is no way to get rid of competition and the evil it brings. Right?

Take the evil out of our evolution and we go extinct. Right?

Regards
DL
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Gnostic Bishop wrote:Robert

You understand the evolutionary processes that control us and that the cooperation produces good but there is no way to get rid of competition and the evil it brings. Right?

Take the evil out of our evolution and we go extinct. Right?

Regards
DL
This line that cooperation produces good while competition produces evil lacks coherence.

Competition creates selective pressure for constant improvement. That is good.

My favourite chapter in the Bible is Matthew 25. It describes the dialectical tension between competition and cooperation at the core of Christian ethics. On the one hand, the parable of the talents says to those who have will be given, establishing competition as the basis of entrepreneurial risk and providing a blessing for capitalism. On the other hand, the Last Judgement says what you do to the least of the world you do to Jesus Christ, providing a blessing for communism and its principles of sharing and cooperation. Both left and right are essential for human progress.

Understanding ethics is about understanding natural order. Evolution is an intrinsically competitive and cooperative process. Both are good.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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GB wrote:You understand the evolutionary processes that control us and that the cooperation produces good but there is no way to get rid of competition and the evil it brings. Right?
Competition in isolation isn't good, but it's an ingredient that helps with progress, as part of the evolutionary algorithm. It's a necessary step, even if it leads to bad products if given priority.

Unthrottled competition is Nazism and extinction of other species. Unfettered competition is an evil thing, a game of basketball where you bring guns and kill each other. Unfettered ompetition is a lab where one researcher wants all the glory and sabotages his colleagues. Unfettered competition is laissez faire capitalism where survival of the fittest is applied to economics.

In coaching FLL robotics these last few years, I was happy to see that they coined a new ethical term, called coopertition. This recognizes the fact that the best progress is only achieved when competition and cooperation are given equal priority. I like the Matthew 25 story, but it seems to be hiding good wisdom in obscure story.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Robert Tulip wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:Robert

You understand the evolutionary processes that control us and that the cooperation produces good but there is no way to get rid of competition and the evil it brings. Right?

Take the evil out of our evolution and we go extinct. Right?

Regards
DL
This line that cooperation produces good while competition produces evil lacks coherence.

Competition creates selective pressure for constant improvement. That is good.

My favourite chapter in the Bible is Matthew 25. It describes the dialectical tension between competition and cooperation at the core of Christian ethics. On the one hand, the parable of the talents says to those who have will be given, establishing competition as the basis of entrepreneurial risk and providing a blessing for capitalism. On the other hand, the Last Judgement says what you do to the least of the world you do to Jesus Christ, providing a blessing for communism and its principles of sharing and cooperation. Both left and right are essential for human progress.

Understanding ethics is about understanding natural order. Evolution is an intrinsically competitive and cooperative process. Both are good.
I agree. Even though we create victims and knowingly do evil by maintaining our competitive stance.

You bolstered what I said. We must do evil.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Interbane wrote:
GB wrote:You understand the evolutionary processes that control us and that the cooperation produces good but there is no way to get rid of competition and the evil it brings. Right?
Competition in isolation isn't good, but it's an ingredient that helps with progress, as part of the evolutionary algorithm. It's a necessary step, even if it leads to bad products if given priority.

Unthrottled competition is Nazism and extinction of other species. Unfettered competition is an evil thing, a game of basketball where you bring guns and kill each other. Unfettered ompetition is a lab where one researcher wants all the glory and sabotages his colleagues. Unfettered competition is laissez faire capitalism where survival of the fittest is applied to economics.

In coaching FLL robotics these last few years, I was happy to see that they coined a new ethical term, called coopertition. This recognizes the fact that the best progress is only achieved when competition and cooperation are given equal priority. I like the Matthew 25 story, but it seems to be hiding good wisdom in obscure story.
I see more cooperation than competition today.

I don't see how we could cause, or even want to cause, more evil to go against less good to give them equal status. If we continue the trends, we will have much more good than evil.

Regards
DL
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