• In total there are 3 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 60 minutes)
    Most users ever online was 789 on Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:08 am

Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Engage in conversations about worldwide religions, cults, philosophy, atheism, freethought, critical thinking, and skepticism in this forum.
Forum rules
Do not promote books in this forum. Instead, promote your books in either Authors: Tell us about your FICTION book! or Authors: Tell us about your NON-FICTION book!.

All other Community Rules apply in this and all other forums.
User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Just realized BookTalk.org is awesome!
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:36 pm
9
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 131 times

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Interbane wrote:
It is changing but the sky is not falling. That is why no one is panicking.
Right, it's because the falling sky has to smash us on the head for us to realize there's danger. When the danger is known intellectually, but not viscerally, people reject it. For this reason, it's one of the greatest threats we face.
Not to worry my friend. The oligarchs control that through the media and their other social manipulation programs.

We are too big to fail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... zVk1ahRF78

Regards
DL
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Not to worry my friend. The oligarchs control that through the media and their other social manipulation programs.
Control what? I can't make sense of this soundbite.

For any manipulation from above to be effective, they would need to be far smarter than they are. The most effective manipulation is the type that the leaders are every bit as convinced as the followers, such as in climate change denialism or fundamentalist christianity or laissez faire libertarianism.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6497
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2717 times
Been thanked: 2659 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Flann 5 wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:Even Jesus the Nazarene is almost certainly an ideal myth, an invented fictional character designed as avatar of the Age of Pisces, as argued especially by Frank Zindler and DM Murdock. This ideal makes complete sense of the pre-existent Logos, given that astronomers could see the movement of the spring point towards Pisces for hundreds and probably even thousands of years before Christ.
Here Robert claims that this thesis of D.M.Murdock's a.k.a. Acharya S.makes a lot of sense and is what he himself thinks is the true explanation in astrological terms of the gospels. However this is a hopelessly worthless thesis by Murdock and here Mike Licona demonstrates why.
http://www.risenjesus.com/a-refutation- ... conspiracy
I am going to go into some detail in response to this bad comment from Flann because I am astounded at his brazen impudence in circulating such ignorant falsity, and because rebutting this false fundamentalist claim is central to developing a rigorous analysis of the real relation between Christianity and Gnosticism.

Licona’s argument from his Risen Jesus Ministry webpage cited here by Flann suggests that the ancients had no knowledge of the boundaries between the constellations. This is wrong. In fact Licona’s claim is laughably stupid Christian propaganda, and it is simply amazing that anyone claiming to be sensible could fall for such a dumb argument. But these people know their intended audience has no interest in facts.

Here is Licona’s astoundingly offensive and false central comment quoting Noel Swerdlow, provided for our confusion by Flann: “the borders between … constellations are a completely modern convention of the International Astronomical Union for the purpose of mapping . . . what this woman is claiming is so wacky that it is hardly worth answering.”

This overtly bigoted remark from Risen Jesus Ministries illustrates the depth of error suffered by those who put supernatural faith before the evidence of science and sense. Licona is a fundamentalist Christ believer, relying on the Bible as history and entering respectful dialogue with people who maintain an anti-scientific method of Biblical studies. His greatest claim to scientific fame arose from getting sacked for questioning the zombie saints in Jerusalem story from Matthew 27:52-3. So we can hardly expect Licona to deliver a scientific analysis of ancient astronomy. His views on this matter are in fact worthless.

The constellations of the zodiac were formulated long before the time of Christ. Babylonian records indicate study of the zodiac for a thousand years before Christ, and of course the pyramids of Egypt, with their astral focus, are vastly older still. So this assertion that the ancients were too stupid to identify boundaries between the constellations is amazingly brazen in its ignorance and disrespect.

In analysing ancient astronomy, we have to understand the centrality of very old traditions in explaining time and space. Stone Age cultures routinely used the moon to mark months and weeks. The idea implicit in Flann’s argument that early humans did not notice the patterns formed by the stars behind the moon is false. In fact these patterns would have been known for far longer than we have written records, given that the human brain has not measurably evolved for a hundred thousand years. There is no reason to suggest paleolithic cultures would not have had involved stories about the stars. But the fall from grace into Christian corruption involved systematic amnesia about all this heritage of ancient wisdom, an amnesia well reflected in Licona's arrogant ignorance.

The twelve lunar months of the solar year have been stable for the four billion years of life on earth. Licona’s argument that humans only noticed a central feature of this temporal structure, the boundaries between constellations, when it was formulated by modern astronomers in their formal maps, is a zany piece of motivated reasoning, to put it extremely politely.

In fact, contrary to Licona, Swerdlow and Flann, the constellation of Pisces, the one at issue here, has an extremely clear and precise boundary formed by stars, a boundary that was perfectly visible to ancient seers, and is visible tonight around the planet since Pisces is now prominent in the evening sky. You can go and have a look for yourself with a star atlas.

Pisces is formed by two lines of stars, one of which is perpendicular to the path of the sun. Ancient maps show that one side of this line of stars was regarded as in Aries, and the other side was regarded as in Pisces. It is a simple and complete refutation of Flann’s cited claim that the ancients had no borders between star groups. For example Flamsteed’s star atlas, based on ancient sources, clearly shows the traditional depiction of Aries’ hoof reaching out to the point where the equinox entered Pisces at the time of Christ. Here is the picture, with the line of Pisces below the ram’s hoof. http://www.ianridpath.com/startales/aries.htm A similar point of connection between Aries and Pisces is visible in ancient maps as well, such as the Dendera Zodiac.

The March equinox point, marked by the celestial equator, precessed across this line of stars into Pisces in 21 AD, during the rule of Pilate. This point moves very slowly, one degree of arc per human lifetime. Ancient methods were easily accurate enough to place this event to within a decade, ie during the purported life of Christ. The key point, and the reason it is anathematised by fundamentalists, is that this observation provides a scientific basis for the construction of the Christ story.

The shift of the spring equinox point from its previous location in Aries into the constellation of Pisces at the time of Christ has high explanatory value as a parsimonious and elegant scientific explanation of the emergence and evolution of the Christ Myth. This was the precise moment, in terms of the hermetic as above so below cosmology of the Gnostic seers, when the stars and the seasons were in tune, providing a simple natural explanation for the story that God became incarnate on earth at that time in the person of Jesus Christ.

This observed movement of the beginning of the natural year in spring from the first sign to the last sign provides a compelling symbolic explanation for why the Bible describes Jesus Christ as last and first, alpha and omega, beginning and end, God incarnate, word made flesh, pre-existent Logos, and why the Bible says this event was predicted for centuries beforehand.

The culture war regarding this stellar material is well reflected in Licona’s dismissive stupidity and ignorance regarding astronomy, and Flann’s unquestioning citation of this false material. Like Bart Erhman, Christian apologists think that their patronising rejection of the astrotheological scientific explanation of the Christ Myth is a simple matter. The Christian literalists fail to see that astrotheology is a new scientific paradigm that is emerging to render their own views obsolete, enabling a new Christian reformation to make faith compatible with reason and providing the basis for religion to become compatible with science.

The beauty of the astral reading of the Bible is in its ability to provide a coherent natural explanation of all the evidence from ancient times, without resort to invalid invocation of supernatural intervention. The scientific goal is to explain how all the stories arose in an entirely plausible and logical way, with a sensible natural meaning underlying the surface fantasy.

A key theme here is that this astral reading is able to maintain respect and reverence for the Christian story, in its imaginative explanation of human culture. An astral reading shows how the changing world of historical appearance can be interpreted against the unchanging orderly structure observed in the stars of the night sky.

Observation of the stars provides the point of connection between what Plato called the same and the different, eternity and time, the cosmos and history. This point of connection between stability and change is in fact located in the biggest observable movement of the structure of the universe available to ancient seers, the precession of the equinox.

This astronomical observation provides a direct physical explanation for Christian metaphysics, an explanation that was lost due to cultural politics of Christendom. The Christian texts themselves indicate that observation of the physical heavens will in time come to be understood as the true basis of their ideas.
User avatar
Gnostic Bishop
Just realized BookTalk.org is awesome!
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:36 pm
9
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 131 times

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Interbane wrote:
Not to worry my friend. The oligarchs control that through the media and their other social manipulation programs.
Control what? I can't make sense of this soundbite.

For any manipulation from above to be effective, they would need to be far smarter than they are. The most effective manipulation is the type that the leaders are every bit as convinced as the followers, such as in climate change denialism or fundamentalist christianity or laissez faire libertarianism.
Our perceptions and feelings as to if a situation or danger is known intellectually or viscerally is under oligarchic manipulation. They control the media. Most of the masses will believe what they are told to believe.

Regards
DL
User avatar
Flann 5
Nutty for Books
Posts: 1580
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:53 pm
10
Location: Dublin
Has thanked: 831 times
Been thanked: 705 times

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Robert Tulip wrote:The constellations of the zodiac were formulated long before the time of Christ. Babylonian records indicate study of the zodiac for a thousand years before Christ, and of course the pyramids of Egypt, with their astral focus, are vastly older still. So this assertion that the ancients were too stupid to identify boundaries between the constellations is amazingly brazen in its ignorance and disrespect.
Hi Robert,
I certainly don't personally claim expertise in astrology and it's history,nevertheless I think Licona's multiple arguments against Murdock's thesis stand.
Noel Swerdlow is an acknowledged expert in this area unlike Murdock.
When in response she appealed to a Professor Krupp, Licona contacted him and he in fact endorsed Swerdlow's view.
The zodiacal divisions can be traced to the 5th century B.C. Babylon. The challenge to Murdock and to you is to provide the evidence for much earlier cultures using these 12 divisions.

Do the pyramids prove this? What evidence there is, shows that the Babylonian model arrived in Egypt later and you may disagree with Swerdlow here, but just mentioning the pyramids is not sufficient to prove they used these 12 zodiacal divisions before the Babylonians.

In any case Licona's arguments are multiple any one of which is fatal to the thesis.Just saying he is evangelical does not address his arguments.
1 Evidence for early dating of the new testament gospels.
2 Astrology is consistently condemned and rubbished by the authors of the bible who you claim are actually using astrology in a coded way.
3 It makes no real interpretive sense as I've shown in relation to Peter and Paul as an example.I could multiply examples of this kind of problem with attempting to apply astrotheology to the gospels.
4 Her Masons and Jews conspiracy holds no water, as Licona shows.

5 The pagan parallels fail and experts in these religions are cited. Some are general but fall down on major claims of virgin births,dates of birth,crucifixion and resurrection. Some postdate Christianity and experts consider these to be influenced by Christianity and not vice versa.

It's hardly surprising that it's Christian apologists who contend with Murdock, yet even Jesus Seminar's Prof. Robert Price and mythicist and atheist historian Richard Carrier find fault with her work too.

I feel I'm repeating myself at this stage, but here's another critique of her work and it is by a Christian.

http://www.tektonticker.blogspot.ie/201 ... docks.html



And in answer to the thread title. Yes I have investigated Gnostic Christianity.

Here's an example of Gnostic 'scripture',the infancy gospel of Thomas.
http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftomb.htm
Last edited by Flann 5 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
youkrst

1F - BRONZE CONTRIBUTOR
One with Books
Posts: 2752
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:30 am
13
Has thanked: 2280 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Flann wrote:It's hardly surprising that it's Christian apologists who contend with Murdock, yet even Jesus Seminar's Prof. Robert Price and mythicist and atheist historian Richard Carrier find fault with her work too.
Bob Price gave DMM's latest a big rave, He could not recommend it highly enough. (you gotta keep current Flann :-D )

Carrier has always had a DMM problem, who knows who cares, his loss.
Flann wrote:Here's an example of Gnostic 'scripture',the infancy gospel of Thomas.
http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftomb.htm
yeah, sho 'nuff crazy talk, not like the bible, inspired by the Holy Ghost, you won't get no crazy talk there..... or will you
Do Not Marry a Divorced Woman: Matthew 5:32 NASB

Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
the letter kills, or impedes eyesight at the very least :-D
User avatar
Robert Tulip

2B - MOD & SILVER
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 6497
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:16 pm
18
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 2717 times
Been thanked: 2659 times
Contact:
Australia

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Flann 5 wrote:I certainly don't personally claim expertise in astrology and it's history,nevertheless I think Licona's multiple arguments against Murdock's thesis stand.
Hi Flann. I really appreciate your engagement with this discussion as it continually prompts me to learn more about these fascinating topics. Your lack of expertise in astrology is quite clear to me, as it illustrates your failure to appreciate that I am not using any astrological arguments in this thread.

I have read Licona’s arguments, and I appreciate his courteous tone, although it is obvious to me that he builds his house upon miraculous sand whereas Murdock builds her house upon scientific rock.

Consider for example Licona’s comment “I do not believe that Jesus’ resurrection from the dead is a “fairytale.” Indeed, I believe there is a strong body of evidence in favor of Jesus’ resurrection as an event that occurred in space-time.”

To me, this is like the Pope of Rome saying to Galileo ““I do not believe that geocentrism is a “fairytale.” Indeed, I believe there is a strong body of evidence in favor of geocentrism as an accurate description of space-time.”

All of Licona’s critique of Murdock is premised on this supernatural miraculous worldview. I actually don’t think that Murdock does a great job in articulating the philosophical and theological questions that inform her perspective, but rather resorts too readily to bluster as a means of argument. So my interest is in analysing the presuppositions and evidence that inform this lively debate.

I have studied the debate on this topic for some years. Swerdlow is relying on Otto Neugebauer, who allegedly refuted a school of thought from about a hundred years ago called ‘Pan-Babylonism’ which asserted that knowledge of precession of the equinoxes dates to ancient Babylon. There is a great summary, albeit intensely biased in Otto’s favour, by Gary Thompson at http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-davi ... page9.html I completely disagree with Thompson, Swerdlow and Neugebauer, but recognise this is a complex debate, and they certainly have the upper hand regarding academic credibility.

My view is that their hypothesis that there was no Babylonian knowledge of precession suffers from crippling flaws, but these gaps of logic have been overlooked by Christians who seize on Neugebauer’s arguments with glee because they validate supernatural dogma. The flaws in Neugebauer that flow through to Swerdlow and Licona and therefore Flann include the apparent use of precessional Gnostic knowledge from Babylon to construct the Christ Myth, the difficulty of explaining how Babylonian astronomers could have predicted eclipses without noticing precession, and the failure to recognise the political psychology of secrecy that is central to ancient culture.
Flann 5 wrote: Noel Swerdlow is an acknowledged expert in this area unlike Murdock.

A core theme at dispute is Licona’s use of Swerdlow’s irrational comment that “what this woman is claiming is so wacky that it is hardly worth answering. So when this woman says that the Christian fish was a symbol of the ‘coming age of Pisces’, she is saying something that no one would have thought of in antiquity because in which constellation of the fixed stars the vernal equinox was located, was of no significance and is entirely an idea of modern, I believe twentieth-century, astrology.”

Too often, experts have concealed assumptions in their arguments, and use these assumptions to belittle those who question them. In addressing Swerdlow’s comment belittling Murdock, I have had cause to look for ancient evidence of an astronomical focus on the boundary between Aries and Pisces, which is the precise part of the sky against which all this argument stands or falls.

Here is a photo that I consider to be a decisive piece of evidence refuting Swerdlow’s comments.
Image
What do we see here? This is a photo of the Farnese globe, an ancient marble statue showing Atlas holding up the heavens. Details are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnese_Atlas

The point of this photo is that it shows the exact point at issue refuting Swerdlow and Licona, namely ancient evidence of a focus on where the equinox point shifted from Aries to Pisces at the time of Christ. From right to left in this photo we see the constellations of Gemini, Taurus, Aries and Pisces. The feet of Aries the Ram, like in the famous Dendera Zodiac from Egypt, touch the wavy rope that traditionally depicts the cord holding the fish of Pisces. The feet of the lamb are part of the traditional mythological figure, but the decisive fact is that the reason the feet point to the X on the globe is directly linked to ancient knowledge of precession, a knowledge that dates back at least 400 years before Christ to Plato and his dialogue the Timaeus, as the real origin of the Christian Chi Rho cross.

There are no stars at the location of the lamb’s foot. The reason the foot of the lamb ‘anoints’ the X can only be that the ancient astronomers understood that this point is where the sun begins the new year each spring equinox. The movement of this 'anointing' point at a rate of one degree every 71.6 years is the astronomical phenomenon known as precession of the equinoxes.

Contrary to Swerdlow’s arrogant mistake, the sole reason why the foot of the lamb touches the line of the fish is that ancient astronomers saw the importance of measuring the point in the sky where the sun leaves the old year and enters the new year, defined as the boundary between Aries and Pisces.
Flann 5 wrote: When in response she appealed to a Professor Krupp, Licona contacted him and he in fact endorsed Swerdlow's view.
[/quote] http://www.risenjesus.com/licona-replie ... rya-part-2 gives this data, and it does not back up Flann’s distorted reading. Krupp is a superb scholar. He correctly says to Licona that “Swerdlow is well informed on the ancient history of astronomy and astrology, and his report to you reflects current scholarly opinion formulated by textual evidence.”

But Krupp himself questions current scholarly opinion, so this statement cannot be construed as an endorsement of Swerdlow. All Krupp is observing is that Swerdlow has the upper hand as regards academic credibility, not that Swerdlow is correct.

Krupp does offer the additional caution that Murdock’s description of ancient astrology involves acceptance of some speculative claims. I think the point here is that written sources are not sufficient to define what ancient people actually thought, and there is a legitimate place for speculation about how subsequent written traditions evolved from much earlier spoken traditions.
User avatar
Flann 5
Nutty for Books
Posts: 1580
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:53 pm
10
Location: Dublin
Has thanked: 831 times
Been thanked: 705 times

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Robert Tulip wrote:Krupp does offer the additional caution that Murdock’s description of ancient astrology involves acceptance of some speculative claims. I think the point here is that written sources are not sufficient to define what ancient people actually thought, and there is a legitimate place for speculation about how subsequent written traditions evolved from much earlier spoken traditions.
Hi Robert, Thanks.
You clearly have given thought and study to these things and it may be that the Zodiac predates the Babylonians.
Your foundational objection I think, is to the supernatural as "unscientific." and therefore "chaff" while you find ethical elements of value and thus "wheat."
So of course I agree with you on the second point if not the first. I feel I've gone as far as I can go on this topic so ultimately just have to agree to differ here. I appreciate the time and effort you put in to researching such things as the history of astrology and your presentation of them here.
I think it would take a miracle to change your mind on this whole question, and I'm sure you are not expecting one any day soon.
User avatar
Interbane

1G - SILVER CONTRIBUTOR
BookTalk.org Hall of Fame
Posts: 7203
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:59 am
19
Location: Da U.P.
Has thanked: 1105 times
Been thanked: 2166 times
United States of America

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Flann wrote:I feel I've gone as far as I can go on this topic so ultimately just have to agree to differ here. I appreciate the time and effort you put in to researching such things as the history of astrology and your presentation of them here.
Your points are all valid and I can't see where you're wrong...

But I disagree!

:slap:
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
User avatar
Flann 5
Nutty for Books
Posts: 1580
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:53 pm
10
Location: Dublin
Has thanked: 831 times
Been thanked: 705 times

Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Unread post

Interbane wrote:Your points are all valid and I can't see where you're wrong...

But I disagree!

:slap:
Not quite Interbane. The arguments are mutifaceted. Even if the present zodiac predates Babylon it doesn't change the other problems with the thesis.
I've presented these and while Robert obviously doesn't agree I don't think he has controverted them though he might think he has.
I think there can be an element of endless repetition here, so that's why I said what I did.
Bob Dylan had a lengthy concert tour for a number of years he called;"The neverending tour." When asked about it by a reporter he said; "Oh, that ended last year."
It's a bit like that, Interbane. I hope you didn't hurt yourself thumping your head. Don't blame me if you did!
Last edited by Flann 5 on Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply

Return to “Religion & Philosophy”