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Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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danimorg62 wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote: I do not care about beliefs of others.

I just do not like seeing people put their minds in limbo. Use Huh and I have no idea.

Regards
DL
I don't think her mind is in limbo, really. She doesn't get into it with me, but she doesn't have a blank stare. She also doesn't wave her hand shushing me away or roll her eyes or anything, she just doesn't get into it with me. How many people have no position on the matter? I'd be surprised if she never pondered the meaning of life, how and why it began and ends - she must. She is in her 70s and she seems clear headed enough. It's just that she has no... intention. Most people have intentions... to sway, to enlighten, to learn. Most people, when the subject of religion comes up, reveal very early on in the conversation what their position is... you learn (you can tell) almost immediately. Believers don't get into the discussion looking to change their minds, to learn, to be enlightened... they get into the discussion with the intention on remaining believers. And if they are not believers, they don't discuss religion hoping to become believers. The rest - those sitting on the fence - are usually trying to figure out what they intend to believe. It's refreshing to be around someone with no intentions.[/quot

That's good that she has no bias one way or the other, but I still maintain by her claiming no beliefs as hers, she's by default on the atheist side. She may not actively promote the atheist stance, and in fact may not even thinking long and hard about not believing in any type of God, but by virtue of having no opinion she's still in parallel to the basic atheist idea. If that makes sense.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Movie Nerd wrote:
That's good that she has no bias one way or the other, but I still maintain by her claiming no beliefs as hers, she's by default on the atheist side. She may not actively promote the atheist stance, and in fact may not even thinking long and hard about not believing in any type of God, but by virtue of having no opinion she's still in parallel to the basic atheist idea. If that makes sense.
Default really has not a thing to do with it.

Godlessness has no agenda, Atheism as an organization implies an agenda.

Which applies equally to Theism as an organization implies an agenda.

Of course this is merely the opinion of one who is godless what ever that implies?.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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youkrst wrote:as Robert Price occasionally remarks "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to believe"
The original quote is of course "when first we practice to deceive."
What is evident in these discussions is how readily mythicists such as Bishop are willing to deceive themselves and others by believing the historic conspiracy theory nonsense propagated by Atwill and the Jesus Seminar mythicists.
Bishop and Youkrst deceive themselves by denying real history in favour of the various mutually contradictory theories claiming that pagan myths were being used by unknown writers of the gospels creating a fictional character called Jesus.
He never existed at all! It's all myth.
youkrst wrote:Flann wrote:
In Christian theology Christ is God co-equal with the Father and Holy Spirit. Our sins are offenses against God and it is God himself in the incarnate Christ who voluntarily takes the just judgement for sins.
This is an act of grace and mercy by God,and salvation is freely offered to all on this basis.




always read the fine print :)



Jesus wrote:
“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
Youkrst's mantra is that orthodox Christians are extreme literalists.In fact as pointed out many times this is not true and orthodox interpretation is nuanced allowing for various genres.
It is Youkrst who is the literalist here. Is Jesus literally commanding hatred of parents and family here?
No serious Christian scholar thinks so and of course elsewhere in the gospel Jesus lambasts the Pharisees for their disregard for the commandment to honour one's parents.
Likewise Youkrst claims the biblical teachings on Grace and discipleship are irreconcilable. There exists centuries of Christian scholarship seeking to understand the teachings of Christ and the new testament but all this can be blithely ignored.
They have a better explanation. Jesus did not exist historically at all and never said anything!
Here's the aforesaid Robert Price debating Jame White on; Is the bible true?
This is a lengthy debate and probably only of limited interest to those propagating and opposing these theories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmA6c0yoVrQ
Last edited by Flann 5 on Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Flann wrote:In fact as pointed out many times this is not true and orthodox interpretation is nuanced allowing for various genres.
There are tens of thousands of denominations. Basically, for every possible interpretation, there's a church for you. So much for hermeneutics having any use. How can you claim the story in the bible is true, if you can't even agree on what it says?
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Interbane wrote: There are tens of thousands of denominations. Basically, for every possible interpretation, there's a church for you. So much for hermeneutics having any use. How can you claim the story in the bible is true, if you can't even agree on what it says?
I suppose it would require an extraordinary amount of study to know why there are varied Christian denominations and cults. Study which I have not done.Undoubtedly interpretive differences account for many of these.
If we look historically we have the biblical account of the early Christian church and over time we find various groups like gnostics for instance, claiming to be the authentic Christians.
With the rise of Constantine there seems to be an increasingly politicised power element at play in what theologians call the visible church. Eastern Orthodoxy splits with Catholicism and this appears to have political aspects to it.
Catholicism as it develops with the notion of an earthly head of the church essentially dictates teaching and interpretation top down, providing a superficial unity.
Later you have the Protestant reformation and the notion of the accessibility of interpretation to all. This does indeed lead to fragmentation though not necessarily differences on major doctrines.The reformers would concur with the ancient creeds of the Catholic church,for example
Later yet with the ascent of the age of reason some Protestant theologians took a naturalistic rational sceptical approach to the bible giving rise to a theologically liberal version.
To some extent the Jesus Seminar guys are one group of their contemporary heirs with a particular emphasis on mythology.
Is it then impossible to understand and interpret the bible?
I think we are fallible as humans and no one can claim perfect understanding and ability here. Nonetheless it's my view that it is possible to be clear on the important and central teachings contained in it. Certainly Jesus use of language is not obscurely academic and the gospels say that the common people heard him gladly. Most things are plain and unambiguous while some are not.

And just to get back to the question of literalism,I really don't think that evangelicalism (which is my view) is as literalist as Youkrst insists.
www.gci.org/bible/literal
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Flann wrote:Bishop and Youkrst deceive themselves by denying real history in favour of the various mutually contradictory theories claiming that pagan myths were being used by unknown writers of the gospels creating a fictional character called Jesus.
He never existed at all! It's all myth.
It's all a Myth! is that such an outrageous statement...

are you saying all the religions of the world are mythical in nature but not your own

are you saying that Jesus, virgin born son of God, turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, that's all literally true but all the other religions aren't, only jews and christians have literal truth in the holy books, everyone else is deceived?!?!?! special pleading much?

Flann could it be, is it just possible that indeed you are the one who is self decieved? unable to see you have submitted to an historicised archetype?

well, as the years roll by we shall see who burns in hell for an eternity and who realises they have made a fundamental error.

i am confident that Jesus is cut from the same cloth as Krishna and Buddha, archetypes one and all.

oh sweet Jesus, save me from my sins :lol:

i am so evil, not like all those fine upstanding christians who think it is just fine to drone strike civilians, bring on armageddon, let's get the antichrist cooking :lol:

honestly orthodox christian doctrine is a recipe for mental illness, repress repress, submit submit.... what goes down must come up :-D
Flann wrote: There exists centuries of Christian scholarship
yes, i've read quite a bit of it.... hmmmmm

evidence that demands a verdict :lol:
Flann wrote:,I really don't think that evangelicalism (which is my view) is as literalist as Youkrst insists.
what saith Jesus
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
what saith evangelical Flann to this statement of His Lord?

i tell you what i say to it

Jesus, your followers are not the sharpest tools in the shed!
Last edited by youkrst on Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Interbane wrote:
Flann wrote:In fact as pointed out many times this is not true and orthodox interpretation is nuanced allowing for various genres.
There are tens of thousands of denominations. Basically, for every possible interpretation, there's a church for you. So much for hermeneutics having any use. How can you claim the story in the bible is true, if you can't even agree on what it says?
That's a major point of contention between my dad and I when we argue religion. My dad was brought up Baptist, but when he first entered the ministry it was in the Methodist church, and when he went to seminary for his graduate degree (his Master's in Theology), he went to a Presbyterian school. And of course now he has switched his credentials to the Baptist denomination (Southern Baptist to be exact),

Despite his varied denominational background, he still maintains a singular Biblical truth. But how can he do that, when no single body can pinpoint the exactness of that truth? If it's absolute, then all should be in agreement; there shouldn't be a debate.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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Some of you guys give a new interpretation to the expression "bible bashers!"
You have your own denomination now too. It's called New Atheism or if you prefer the Brights.

You are so bright and illuminating I need to wear shades.Thanks for your radiance.
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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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:-D no worries Flann, the power of Jesus is strong in you, i feel the conviction of the holy spirit. oops Holy Spirit!

Flann you may be right, i better check the bible one more time to see what words of wisdom i may have missed...
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8(for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.
Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
:lol: pull the other one, it plays jingle bells :-D

look Flann, i know i may seem a little like the fellows "Peter" is having a go at there but really....

perhaps i need more pearls of wisdom from the good book... hmmmm lemme see....
For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


heheh...

ohhhh sweet Jesus have mercy on my unrepentant heart, your Dad keeps hardening it, what can i do... i shall turn to your word for hope....
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
‘Because you have made your heart
Like the heart of God,

7Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you,
The most ruthless of the nations.
And they will draw their swords
Against the beauty of your wisdom
And defile your splendor.

8‘They will bring you down to the pit,
And you will die the death of those who are slain
In the heart of the seas.

9‘Will you still say, “I am a god,”
In the presence of your slayer,
Though you are a man and not God,
In the hands of those who wound you?

10‘You will die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of strangers,
For I have spoken!’ declares the Lord GOD!”’”
marvellous! so encouraging...
And I will make this city an astonishment, and a hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. 9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters; and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend, in the siege and in the distress, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their life, shall distress them. 10 Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee, 11 and shalt say unto them, Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again; and they shall bury in Topheth, till there be no place to bury. 12 Thus will I do unto this place, saith Jehovah, and to the inhabitants thereof, even making this city as Topheth: 13 and the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, which are defiled, shall be as the place of Topheth, even all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink-offerings unto other gods.


errr Jesus, your Dad is a fruitcake :-D

what's that Lord? , you have a word for me...
You will tread upon the lion and cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you will trample down.

14“Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name.

15“He will call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will rescue him and honor him.

16“With a long life I will satisfy him
And let him see My salvation.”
ahhhhhh that's sweet, love you Jesus.

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Re: Is God the epitome of both good and evil?

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an explanation? ahhhhh...
An Explanation

10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17“For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
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