ACLU vs. Boy Scouts

jjacobs43 · Experienced Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 111 Gender:

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Really? They represent something that is "very wrong with our society"?? What is it that you find so offensive about the Boy Scouts?

I find the fact that they discriminate offensive. That's my personal opinion. You have your things...I have my things.

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Yeah, these 10-year-olds are going to destroy everyone's civil liberties and bring about a new, dark age of intolerance and hate. Give me a break, please. The ACLU is on a witch-hunt. They always act with the impetus of 'eradication of Christianity from culture'.

They are trying to eradicate Christianity from the state. That is all. If the Boy Scouts stayed private, it wouldn't be an issue. They'd still be intolerant, but the ACLU wouldn't have any legal stance against them.

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If you don't approve of the Boy Scouts, don't participate. But leave them alone. They're not doing anything detrimental, they're a beneficial outfit, for crying out loud.

I won't participate. And if I had any kids I would strongly discourage them from participating. The exclusion of homosexuals and non Christians is not the type of values I'd want to teach my children.

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The only boy's group the liberal-left supports is NAMBLA. Go figure.

I've never heard of NAMBLA before and if you think that the liberal left supports child molestation then you need to expand your horizons a bit. Obviously, if that's what the organization is for, they shouldn't be allowed to meet anywhere. That has nothing to do with the separation of church and state.

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The ACLU has a loooooooong history of hostility toward Christianity.

Well, I'd argue that the reason for this is because Christianity has a loooooooong history of intolerance and is asking for it.

janterry · Getting comfortable Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 9 Gender:

Just wanted to add that I find it very difficult to hear that someone would try to link (and that's what I think is happening) child molestation with gay men.

The logic is not just a leap, it is, as I've written elsewhere, inappropriate. The VAST majority of child perps (including those that target young boys) are heterosexual.

They are not gay.

We have done several meta-analyses and this holds up across studies and across methodologies.

And just for the record, I have a daughter - but if I had a son I would not allow them to join an organization that openly discrimminates against another group.

Edited by: janterry at: 12/4/04 9:43 am

Niall001 · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:03 am Post subject: Re: reply

Describing a pedophile as either heterosexual or homosexual is pretty misleading.

Something that confuses the issue is that what is sometimes called pedophile is a label applied to a sexually mature man who engages in sexual relations with a sexually mature but emotionally immature boy, often called ephebophila. The APA and the law define pedophilia differently. What is considered ephebophila by many psychologists is considered pedophilia by the media.

For instance, in the pedophile-priests scandal in the U.S. most examples of abuse were examples of ephebophila. To be a true pedophile you have to be attracted to youth rather than sex.

Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard Matheson

There are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes

janterry · Getting comfortable Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 9 Gender:

I think the question is important, to researchers, because when they describe the sexual predictions of pedophiles they are also trying to understand treatment interventions.

Niall001 · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: reply

According to the APA definition, pedophiles are only attracted to pre-pubescents. It is their primary sexual orientation. Which is to say that pedophiles aren't attracted to a sex, but to a developmental stage. In the same way that 'normal' people may have preferences for redheads, asians, africans, blondes or short people, pedophiles may prefer certain kinds of child, but it is the child they are attracted to, not the child's sex.

THe Diagnostic criteria for Pedophilia is

A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
B. The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
C. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

In approx. 66% of cases, where a child has been abused by a pedophile, the pedophile was the child's parent. Makes sense when you think about it. Access being a key issue. So clearly, the majority of pedophiles are going to be hetrosexual in their 'normal' sexual activities. The thing is, what is that person thinking about when they're having sex. There are many pedophiles who don't molest children, though they may look at pictures, they might imagine having sex with children, and picture children when having sex. There are many non-pedophiles who molest children, though clearly they have pedophillic tendencies.

The Enjo kosai culture in Japan is commonly accepted there. In societies where it is normal to marry girls of about 13, it is common for men to be attracted to women of that age. Pedophilia is just a label. It doesn't exist. Sexuality is a very vague thing. Some research findings indicate that 25% of men are sexually attracted to children to some degree. But those people don't go about molesting kids.

Sorry this is probably all over the place. The point I'm trying to make is that sexuality isn't just black and white even if our practices are.
Some studies suggest that homophobia is a sign of latent homosexual tendencies. Its just unconscious. Whether someone's non-pedophillic activities are homosexual or hetrosexual is not really an important issue. Unfortunately, Its a part of sexuality.

Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard Matheson

There are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes

irondemon · Almost a regular Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 32 Gender:

In your most recent post, you included a passage form an opinion written by former Chief Justice Burger in the case LEMON V. KURTZMAN:

"No significant segment of our society and no institution within it can exist in a vacuum or in total or absolute isolation from all the other parts, much less from government. Nor does the Constitution require complete separation of church and state; it affirmatively mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions, and forbids hostility toward any." (Chief Justice Warren Burger. Lemon v. Kurtzman.)

I could not locate this passage. From my research of Sup. Ct. decisions concerning LEMON (10 minor motions, 2 actual major opinions from 1971 - 1973), the closest I could find was this:

"The Supreme Court's prior holdings do not call for total separation between church and state; total separation is not possible in an absolute sense. Some relationship between government and religious organizations is inevitable." Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 614.

Are you certain your passage is taken directly form the opinion? I ask because, though the two passages touch on similar subject matter, their tones with respect to that subject matter differ, not insignificantly I think.

Also, it is interesting that you chose to cite as supportive of your position a case wherein it was held that a statute that provided aid to church-related elementary and secondary schools violated the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment, and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. I do concede, however, that the LEMON test is no longer used (though it was never expressly overruled).

I'm curious, also, as to what your response is to the citations in the previous posts regarding the ACLU's backing of many Christian claimants? How do you reconsile the fact that the ACLU does support Christians with your assertions to the contrary?

Niall001 · Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Attn: Eric Hagelin

I'm afraid that Eric left the forum because of the implementation of a no-surfing policy in his workplace, so I'm afraid he isn't likely to reply.

Let us agree, there is no one single reality. Not upon this stage, not in this world, all is in the mind... imagination is the only truth. Because it cannot be contradicted except by other imaginations - Richard Matheson

There are no conclusive indications by which waking life can be distinguished from sleep - Rene Descartes

irondemon · Almost a regular Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 32 Gender:

Good to know. Thanks.

jjacobs43 · Experienced Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 111 Gender:

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I'm curious, also, as to what your response is to the citations in the previous posts regarding the ACLU's backing of many Christian claimants? How do you reconsile the fact that the ACLU does support Christians with your assertions to the contrary?

I too wonder this. It amazes me how the ACLU gets painted as such an evil organization when their objective is to stick up for the little guy. Let's see, who else is evil? The ADL, College Professors, the media, Hollywood...on & on. Somehow, this all get's started and repeated enough until it is fact.

As was stated earlier in this thread...

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Not one time has the ACLU taken a stand for a Christians rights, thats a fact.

See...somehow this is now a "known" fact by many people.

pctacitus · Senior Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 354 Gender:

Did anyone else see the episode of South Park about this subject?

Doug Larson: “The cat could very well be man's best friend but would never stoop to admitting it."


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