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Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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Interbane

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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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Flann wrote:I think there is a tendency to just brush aside problems with the theory, on the grounds that the considerable majority of experts agree or the courts have ruled.
The problems aren't brushed aside. They are seen as gaps in our knowledge. The difference is in how each side approaches it. Evolutionary biologists see these gaps as areas to fill with knowledge. ID advocates see them as gaps to fill with god. When you compare these two approaches, you see that one is flawed. We know we have gaps in our knowledge, there always have been and always will be. Thousands if not millions of gaps, of all sizes. Over the decades, the gaps are progressively and endlessly resolved as understanding advances, showing natural mechanisms in their place each and every time. To pick a gap that currently exists and claim it is unable to be resolved is an argument from ignorance. This is what all of Behe's complicated efforts reduce to - a fallacy. In the decades since he's been claiming that various gaps are too problematic to be resolved, he has been shown wrong time and again, but he always moves on to another gap, or another way to word the same gap.
And while so many (shockingly!) have trouble believing in evolution, it seems some have no trouble believing in the above proposition.
People also believe the Earth is hollow and that the Earth orbits the sun and that the Earth is less than ten thousand years old. People have no trouble believing ridiculous things. It's the true stuff that people seem to have a problem with.
ant wrote:In short: science is a social construct.
Sure, as long as you add the caveat that it is the most effective tool we have at uncovering truths about our universe. It is also the most effective tool we have at minimizing the sorts of biases that are prevalent in social constructs. Saying that science is a social construct is like saying that many people participate in it. That is not a detrimental characteristic, it is a necessary one. The alternative is that a single man declares he has the truth, and everyone else accepts it blindly.

Continuing to point out the limitations of science that everyone here is aware of does not change our views on the topic of evolution. Every other method of acquiring knowledge has far larger limitations. Science is the best we can do. Show me wrong and propose an alternative.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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This might be off track but one problem I have with the scientific community is that it is totally dominated by men.

Because men dominate the sciences we have little choice but to continually listen to their perspectives and subjective interpretations of the natural world.

What about women?
Is it to be assumed that they too see nature the exact same way as men do?
Why? And who's experience is closest to how things really are?

I would like to see more female scientists in the future.
We could only benefit from that.
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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Continuing to point out the limitations of science that everyone here is aware of does not change our views on the topic of evolution
Oh really?

Darn.
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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ant wrote:That wasnt my point nor was I arguing for IC or GOTG
No one really knows your point.

Maybe you can clear up the misunderstanding, I'll try again.

Do you agree with Stephen J. Gould that evolution is a fact in the sense that it is "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent"? Let's be more specific: the fact that humans have evolved from fish, since you seemed to have some kind of problem with that.

There are things in the world that you would accept as "facts" aren't there? You quack like someone that thinks evolution is on much shakier ground than most scientists would. Are you going to keep dodging or do you want to clear it up?
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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ant wrote:Let me just share what came to mind when thinking about Behe
Mehe is a joke, and is famous only because 40% of Americans agree with him. Analysing the basis of this social pathology is a worthwhile exercise, but the two clowns ant and flann will continue to prevent any serious discussion by talking through their butts.
ant wrote: If a scientist is neither part of the collective or shares its values, then that person can not practice science within the community.
The values of science include a commitment to logic and evidence and facts, to basing opinions upon observation, to be willing to change when proved wrong. These are all what ant dismisses as "values". Behe and his friends reject these values in favour of medieval patriarchy. That is the real covert agenda of creationism.
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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ant wrote:
Chris OConnor wrote:Well then explain yourself better.

In fact just answer these questions very briefly...

1. Have you read any of Michael Behe's books? Which ones? How would you rate them?

2. Do you believe in intelligent design?
Let me just share what came to mind when thinking about Behe and him being on the margins in relation to his peers who do not share his personal assumptions about TTOE and have made that clear publicly.

Science is very much a social enterprise. It is more the work of a collective which shapes the content of scientific theories.
Current scientific theories also reflect the social values of the community.

If a scientist is neither part of the collective or shares its values, then that person can not practice science within the community.

Also, "active associations" and "thought styles" are agreed upon and set in place by the collective.
Metrics are assigned to phenomena. They too must be agreed upon. It is from that point when theories of reality are constructed.


In short: science is a social construct.

there is no question that scientists like Behe are working outside of the community and hold to a different conceptualization of Nature outside the current theoretical framework.
Call it the "paradigm" that is currently in place.

if history has taught us anything about science, it is this:
Theories are reevaluated and built on when they no longer are able to sustain explanatory power.
Conceptual revolutions are a guarantee.

We have already experienced revolutions that have drastically altered our view of reality. Some in ways totally unexpected and counter-intuitive to what we THOUGHT Nature was supposed to be like and what it was supposedly telling us about reality.

Have I read Behe? No.
But I have read bits and pieces of him. I can not say I agree with what he is attempting to advance.

I have read " Finding Darwin's God" which was actually recommended by Richard Dawkins.
I am more inclined to fall in line with that author's opinion than any other.

sorry if I chopped this all up. I post mostly from my phone and its a challenge.
Just stepping out of the fray for a moment, this is a really good post. We do need people to go against the grain and show us a slightly skewed way of looking at things from time to time. Sometimes it takes an outsider to yield startling new insights.

However, Behe brings nothing to the table in this regard. This is just good ol' Creationism in a brand new wrapper. Behe makes a grand argument—actually embracing most of our modern view of evolution, including that evolution can produce new species, and that human beings are one of those species—while artfully finding a place for God in those dark recesses of human knowledge.

Interesting review of Darwin's Black Box . . .

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/behe-review/
-Geo
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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Robert wrote:
but the two clowns ant and flann will continue to prevent any serious discussion by talking through their butts.
LMAO!

How old are you, Robert? :P

Why don't you go back to our Leonardo thread and post something that adds some real substance instead of posting two portraits of men with beards and claiming they must be the same person?

I'm enjoying knocking the stuffing out of your unclean, foul "Leonardo was a Platonist" thesis.
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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Dexter wrote:
Do you agree with Stephen J. Gould that evolution is a fact in the sense that it is "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent"
On several occasions I've commented on what the definition (as I understand it to be) of a scientific theory is.

To the extent that a given theory's explanans "Cover" (Hempel's model. criticized but nonetheless useful) its referential explanandum, I am inclined to grant my layman's support to it.

There are things in the world that you would accept as "facts" aren't there?
It is a fact that if I try to run through a brick wall I will be knocked flat on my ass.

It is a fact that if I run my hand through fire my hand will get burned.

It is a fact that if I jump off a building I will likely perish.

As we peel away more of our macro reality, facts about the behavior of material elements and our perception of reality as experienced becomes less established.
At that point we must accept the differences between observation and detection.
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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Ant wrote:It is a fact that if I try to run through a brick wall I will be knocked flat on my ass.
Not if the bricks are made of Styrofoam.
Ant wrote:It is a fact that if I run my hand through fire my hand will get burned.
Not if your hand is inside a firefighters protective glove.
Ant wrote:It is a fact that if I jump off a building I will likely perish.
Not if the building is only one story or one story partially below the surface. And not if the building is tall enough and you're wearing a parachute.

:tease:
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Re: Why Do So Many Have Trouble Believing In Evolution?

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:razz2:
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