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III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

#133: Sept. - Nov. 2014 (Non-Fiction)
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ant

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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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I like Sagan's (I think it was Sagan) thought experiment regarding evolution:
What if the dinosaurs had not been driven into extinction? Evolution might very well have taken a very different path.
It might have taken the randomness of a large impact to nudge evolution along the path it eventually did take.

Are laws dependent on randomness at any time?

Evolution is not a law of nature.
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Interbane

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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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The theory of evolution is a theory. But there is the algorithmic mechanism which can be said to be a law. The algorithm is a mathematical formula governing the process of a replicator, taking into account fidelity, fecundity, and longevity.

Consider theories of how our specific solar system evolved. We know it evolved primarily due to the law of gravity. But the theories involve more than that law. They go through different possible extra-solar collisions, such as the event that supposedly separated the moon from the earth.

Evolution is like that. You have the algorithm, which we know is primarily responsible for life on Earth. But then you have the theory of evolution, which describes the specifics of the path taken, and how the algorithm has applied in different ways.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - Douglas Adams
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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ant wrote:I like Sagan's (I think it was Sagan) thought experiment regarding evolution:
What if the dinosaurs had not been driven into extinction? Evolution might very well have taken a very different path.
It might have taken the randomness of a large impact to nudge evolution along the path it eventually did take.
Do you think scientists are claiming that the current path was inevitable?

There are a million things that could have gone differently, but evolution would have still happened.
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Interbane wrote:The theory of evolution is a theory. governing the process of a replicator, taking into account fidelity, fecundity, and longevity. But there is the algorithmic mechanism which can be said to be a law. The algorithm is a mathematical formula

Consider theories of how our specific solar system evolved. We know it evolved primarily due to the law of gravity. But the theories involve more than that law. They go through different possible extra-solar collisions, such as the event that supposedly separated the moon from the earth.

Evolution is like that. You have the algorithm, which we know is primarily responsible for life on Earth. But then you have the theory of evolution, which describes the specifics of the path taken, and how the algorithm has applied in different ways.


Again, look at these words of yours:
But there is the algorithmic mechanism which can be said to be a law. The algorithm is a mathematical formula
What precisely is the algorithm you keep referring to?

Is there a law that explains the inevitability of evolution from lifeless matter?
What law is that?

Laws are meant to explain, right?
Are you explaining anything here by saying "there is an algorithmic mechanism that is called a law and that it is a "mathematical formula"??
I know the theory of evolution is a theory.
You are writing nicely here but are not really explaining anything.

Aren't what you really doing here is saying "there's smoke because there's fire"?

The evolution of the solar system is not the same thing as the evolution of life.

You love to throw the word "algorithm" around without any real content.
This is some sort of evolution truism speak going on with you.
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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What precisely is the algorithm you keep referring to?
The process at the core of the theory of evolution. Here is an in depth explanation.
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~gusz/ecbook/Eiben- ... EC-Ch2.pdf
Is there a law that explains the inevitability of evolution from lifeless matter?
What law is that?
Highly doubtful there is any such law. Maybe there is, who knows.

The evolution of the solar system is not the same thing as the evolution of life.
You’re so infuriatingly resistant to understanding stuff. Just have some intellectual humility and read between the lines ant. I’m not making stuff up or forcing a worldview or trying to score points. I’m stating things that are widely accepted and easily shown to be true. My analogy between the formation of our solar system and the theory of evolution was to show the categorical difference between theories and laws. I was definitely not saying that because they share the word evolution, they are the same(or anything remotely close). It is a useful analogy if you'd give the effort to understand what I meant.
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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"given a population of individuals"


Did you read this all and fully understand it?
Wow!

Evolution taking place after a population has emerged is not being disputed.
Obviously you need life to exist prior to evolution taking place.

My initial question was what law determines consciousness arising from evolution.
If we rewound the clock, and given random environmental conditions, would consciousness still evolve?
Does this algorithm indicate it would?
On what page?

Does evolution take place on other planets that have similar environmental conditions as earth?
What evidence is there for that?
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Does this algorithm indicate it would?
On what page?
No. Just as the law of gravity does not say how many moons Jupiter would have if the Solar system were to reform again from ever so slightly different starting conditions.
Does evolution take place on other planets that have similar environmental conditions as earth?
What evidence is there for that?
The the conditions are met for the evolutionary algorithm to begin, then yes, evolution takes place on other planets. One of the conditions is abiogenesis. There is no law for that, only hypotheses at present. So in short, no, not unless by "similar environmental conditions" you mean life has already arisen.
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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There seems to be interesting work going on in epigenetic studies.
It's struggled though because it challenges aspects of the the reigning paradigm of neo Darwinism, and strongly suggests a Lamarckian apect to change. Here's a brief video by evolutionist Dr Eva Jablonka titled, Epigenetics in Evolution. There's a longer lecture by her also if you find this interesting.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ckZ7SmfhE
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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There seems to be interesting work going on in epigenetic studies.
It's struggled though because it challenges aspects of the the reigning paradigm of neo Darwinism, and strongly suggests a Lamarckian apect to change.
An article from earlier this year:
End the Hype over Epigenetics and Lamarckian Evolution
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Re: III. What There Is - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Interbane wrote:
There seems to be interesting work going on in epigenetic studies.
It's struggled though because it challenges aspects of the the reigning paradigm of neo Darwinism, and strongly suggests a Lamarckian apect to change.
An article from earlier this year:
End the Hype over Epigenetics and Lamarckian Evolution
Thanks for the article and video, Interbane and Flann. This is a really interesting topic.

My wife, a psych nurse practitioner, came back from a conference not long ago where the keynote speaker suggested that a grandmother who smokes can pass down ADHD traits to her grandchildren. I didn't really understand how that could be possible, but since then I've read some articles on epigenetics. This is not actually Lamarckian, nor a challenge to evolutionary theory. Basically information about the environment is being passed down (not actual characteristics), thus influencing the expression of genes in the offspring.

Scientists had previously observed that a food shortage in the 1940s—the Dutch famine of 1944—caused low birth weights iand health issues to the next generation.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 110959.htm

This article doesn't discuss transgenerational epigenetics, which is what my wife's keynote speaker was talking about. I think the jury's still out on that.

Stephen Novella has written about the poor science reporting with respect to epigenetics.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?s=epigenetics

An excerpt:

"Essentially, epigenetics are tweaks to the expression of genes in response to environmental factors. If a mother is, for example, living in times where there is good access to food, epigenetic factors will adapt her children to the current abundance. If she is living in lean times, they will we more adapted to food scarcity."

Edit: By the way, Dr Eva Jablonka's talk was from Asheville, NC. That's where I live!
-Geo
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