Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

pctacitus · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...onda02.xml

I came across the above article, and was wondering, can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

"...Thirty-three years after the photograph was taken in a gun pit outside the North Vietnamese capital, Fonda regrets her treachery towards "the country that gave me privilege"...

"She made the comments in an interview to be broadcast on the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes tomorrow night. She said of the series of pictures showing her laughing and applauding the gun crew: "The image of Jane Fonda, Barbarella, Henry Fonda's daughter... sitting on an enemy aircraft gun was a betrayal."

"She added that the photograph amounted to the "largest lapse of judgment that I can even imagine"."

The reaction has not been very positive, as with "Chuck Schantag, a former marine who runs the PoW Network, said: "She should have been indicted for treason. If she turned up to apologise, the PoWs would just skin her alive. She offered aid and comfort to the North Vietnamese."

Joe Davis, a spokesman for Veterans of Foreign Wars, said: "Some things can never be forgiven. Jane Fonda falls into that category.""

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

Loricat · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Here it is: the reason I would never want to be famous...Do something stupid and no one ever forgets. Do something which at the time seems politically astute (to you) as a publicity stunt, and later you can never live it down.

In my opinion, the type of person who cares about this issue (for example, ex-POWs) will never be able to see the situation from her point of view. She was young, the young people in the country were demonstrating against the USA's involvement in Vietnam, and she came up with a 'brilliant' idea that she thought would make a statement, or the right kind of statement. Young, and definitely stupid. She should be forgiven, but she won't be.

Lori

"All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."

pctacitus · Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Funny, when I think of publicity stunts, treason doesn't fall into that category.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

jjacobs43 · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Quote:
Funny, when I think of publicity stunts, treason doesn't fall into that category.

So, I guess the subject line question was rhetorical then?

Ken Hemingway · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Lori wrote: She was young.

At the time of her trip to North Vietname she was 35 - two years younger than you, Lori.

Tessa3 · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Oh yes--I have had the same things said about me--until my defenders pointed out that I am a veteran whereas those pointing the fingers had not served at all. How cavalier to point fingers at those who oppose tyranny.

I love the attached article. Different war, same point: www.serendipity.li/bush/bowman01.htm

pctacitus · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Ken,
So what if she was just 35, John McCain, who was tortured for refusing to see her was younger then that when he was shot down.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

Loricat · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Okay, so she was 35. Not necessarily young, but definitely stupid. In the late 60s, protest was the new 'thing', everyone was doing it, all over the world (I'm in the midst of "1968" by Mark Kurlansky). Deciding to visit North Vietnam in protest of an unpopular war is not that far a stretch of (albeit idiotic) reason. At the time, when she came up with the idea, I'm sure she found more than one person who, stoned out of their trees, said: "cool, man. That'll sure stick it to the Man!"

Historically, there's many instances of people supporting the 'wrong' side of an engagement...The Spanish Civil War (1930s) had had a lot of famous and semi-famous people fighting on the side of the anarchists. Lots of people support Castro's Cuba.

Everything is clearer in retrospect, and the average citizen of the USA has enough other targets in current events to lob critical bombs at than some 3rd rate actress who, 30-some years ago, did something abysmally stupid.

That said, there is my Buddhist tag line "All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds." The onus is on the individual to think about the consequences of their actions, as they will never live them down. Too bad none of us are perfect.

Lori

"All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."

Tessa3 · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

McCain was 35; Fonda was 35. So what!?

The average age of soldiers in Vietnam was only 19. Draft deferments were available to those in college which meant the war was fought by children of the poor. 1,000,000 Vietnamese soldiers and 4,000,000 civilians were killed in the war. 58,226 American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action. They were more than numbers in a history book. They were my classmates, family members and friends.

We at home were engaged in a battle for the hearts and minds of the nation. Some of the strongest opposition, however, came from the soldiers themselves who began to question the morality of the war. Vietnam Veterans Against The War was formed in 1967 and grew rapidly to 30,000 returning service men and women.

I see from the age poll that no one here was old enough to remember the Vietnam War. I am afraid that we did not, as a nation, learn from the war, and my children and grandchildren will suffer the consequences.

Loricat · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

Tessa3 -- I read the linked article you posted...yup, strong stuff. I won't comment because I'm neither a veteran nor a citizen of the USA.

Lori

"All beings are the owners of their deeds, the heirs to their deeds."

Ken Hemingway · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Can Jane Fonda be forgiven?

There are certainly times when treason is the only honourable course of action. I call to witness the White Rose, and the Generals' plot. Americans among us might want to add that gang of rabble rousers who used to meet in Philadelphia, though I, of course, as a loyal citizen of the crown, cannot view their actions as less than wholly reprehensible.

I say this not because I think that Miss Fonda was right in what she did. I do not think that. But I do think it was brave - probably to the point of foolhardiness, as she has since recognized.

Perhaps it would be useful to look for examples closer to home? How many of us think that the current US government is justified in holding people in Guantanamo, indefinitely, without trial, and without granting them status as prisoners of war?

But, how many of us have spoken out loudly against this practice? Loudly enough to be heard, at least, in Washington?

pctacitus · Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Fonda

I am sick of the remarks to the effect of "you weren't there, so you can't know" followed by "your generation is going through the same thing." If I am going through the same thing, shouldn't I be able to understand?

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

Tessa3 · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Fonda

Yes! You absolutely should, and I am sure you will. But in doing so, I hope will not derive your analysis from a one-sided account of history that is nothing more than conservative propaganda and fails to take into account some of the achievements of the left in the 1960s in ending the war and in fighting for civil rights.

marti1900 · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Fonda

Tactitus, if it is me you are talking to, I didn't mean to offend you, or anyone in particular here. My babblings were a general rant aimed more at the media all of whom are about 12 years old, which is dragging this stuff up for no real purpose than to create a stir.

You are right, we can understand the past even if we didn't live at that time, but I hope you can concede the point that we can know the facts about a past era without maybe understanding the 'feel' of that time.

Still friends? Don't be mad at me. I'm a fragile old lady, all that marajuana notwithstanding.

Marti in Mexico

pctacitus · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Fonda

Marti,

I did not take your remarks personally. There is nothing for me to forgive.

When I look at the newsmedia, youth isn't something that strikes me as an apparent quality. They are young in mind, but not in body.

Dan Rather who retired recently and his replacement Bob Shieffer at CBS are at least in their 60s, Peter Jennings, is if I remember correctly, in his sixties as well, Brokaw retired last year at what age? and his replacement Brian Williams is youthful by media standards at 45 last year with over 20 years experience, Jim Lehrer at PBS is over 70, their moderator of Washington Week is almost fifty.

If we switch to Cable, at Fox, the youngest looking among them, Sean Hannity is 43 and will turn 44 this year, at MSNBC Chris Matthews is turning 60 this year. At CNN, Wolf Blitzer was born in 1948.

I remember what Thomas Ricks, a reporter noted about Somalia in 1992, that a 22 year old Marine Corporal could make decisions that would potentially alter national policy, when in his office in D.C. they would not let 22 year olds run the copy machine without supervision.

…[T]o ignore the classics is ultimately to weaken the very foundations of our society. - James Atlas, Book Wars: What it Takes to be Educated in America

Edited by: pctacitus at: 4/7/05 3:07 pm


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