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IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

#133: Sept. - Nov. 2014 (Non-Fiction)
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Chris OConnor

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IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

This thread is where can discuss the section entitled "What There Isn't" from "Send and Goodness Without God."
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Re: IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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In the beginning of this section, Carrier gives a brief introduction to determinism and compatibilist free will. I agree with most of what he says, and where I think I disagree has to do with definitions of words. But in that respect, I'm likely wrong.

He explores the concept of time, what it would mean to exist outside of time, and how our perception at various points in the light cone vary. Part of this exploration involves a problem Daniel Lane Craig has with the concept of time.
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Re: IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Whoa, slow down. You atheists are in a big damn hurry considering you believe in nothing.
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Re: IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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Dexter wrote:Whoa, slow down. You atheists are in a big damn hurry considering you believe in nothing.
According to Robert, atheists BELIEVE God does not exist.

Unless of course Robert's atheism is not your atheism
So why does he call himself an atheist?

And what about that podcast host who interviewed Richard Dawkins?
He's an atheist who believes atheists have "the moral high ground" over theists.
Atheism simply means no belief in a deities. It's not a moral system of any kind, right?
Does that mean he isn't an atheist either?

All these people calling themselves atheists that aren't even atheists!

Sounds like religious people claiming there religion the one TRUE religion.

Will the real atheists please step forward?!
Last edited by ant on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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According to Robert, atheists BELIEVE God does not exist.

Unless of course Robert's atheism is not your atheism
So why does he call himself an atheist?
Because, as Carrier argues, there are multiple(hundreds/thousands) lines of inquiry that all converge onto worldviews that are purely naturalistic, using proven methods. Belief in a worldview where there is no god is justified by these methods, and by the converging lines of inquiry.
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Re: IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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My original post was mistaken. The section on compatibilist free will was in chapter 3. I'll give the primary sections of this chapter below, and any thoughts if I have them. Again, I find myself agreeing with nearly everything that is said, so much of it slips from memory. Someone who disagrees may have to add some commentary.

IV.1. Not Much Place for the Paranormal

IV.1.1. Science and the Supernatural

IV.1.2.1. The Rain Miracle of Marcus Aurelius

IV.1.2.5. The Argument from Evidence

IV.1.2.7. Prophecy and History


An interesting application of the methods of historical inquiry into the veracity of prophecies. He uses one of the more famous examples.

IV.2.2.2. To the Victor Goes the Spoil (Religion Didn’t Win by Playing Fair)

This section will not be taken well by Flann and ant. I agree with everything that's said, but only the negatives are included. The positives aren't included, and that will likely polarize some readers. Not that I think the positives outweigh the negatives, as I've recently mentioned in another thread.

IV.2.2.4. Religion as Medicine

This is an interesting metaphor, and I highly recommend this section to Robert. It's a concept I've repeated to him quite a few times.

IV.2.7. Anything Defended with Such Absurdities Must be False

Yep.
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Re: IV. What There Isn't - "Sense and Goodness Without God"

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At the tail end of this chapter there is a portion that made me laugh out loud. It is regarding the second formulation of the argument from free will in explanation of why god appears to be inactive or nonexistent, let alone having even a small amount of undeniable presence in our world.

The argument is that if god allowed himself to be seen in a more certain fashion, it would take away our free will, since we would then no longer have any reason to disbelieve.

I think this was an argument Stahrwe repeated at one point, though I'm not sure. Pure lunacy.
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